My first flyssa

[Emanuel]

Nope, I'm wrong, there do seem to be yataghan with the weird "integral bolster" :http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3466 but then it is really small and it looks like that of a khodme

So here I'll ask Ham and Jim and others with experience on Ottoman weapons to say whether the octogonal "bolster" is found often enough on blades produced in Turkey/Asia-Minor/Caucasus.

[kronckew]

i see my flyssa in one of the references, here's a slightly better picture along with a curved variant, others of which were also mentioned in the ref. both are large dagger length rather than swords. i hope to eventually get a sword length one to complete the set. i like the one you posted above, looks a neat simple battle blade.

[FenrisWolf]

Originally Posted by kronckew

i see my flyssa in one of the references, here's a slightly better picture along with a curved variant, others of which were also mentioned in the ref. both are large dagger length rather than swords. i hope to eventually get a sword length one to complete the set. i like the one you posted above, looks a neat simple battle blade.

Now this is interesting. I have seen a number of the curved version for sale on ebay, sometimes called flyssa, other times called nimcha. Up until now I thought the flyssa reference was in error because there was so much departure in style from the earleir flyssa form; the hilt was significantly different, being inlaid wood with actual quillions, and the blade so sharply curved. But here we have a hilt sheathed in engraved brass that is only slightly different from the traditional flyssa, and a scabbard whose carving is also reminiscent of the earlier form. It seems fairly obvious that the curved flyssa is a more recent evolution of the flyssa, one that appeared after the sword form fell out of favor.

Fenris

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Fenris,
Interesting variant of flyssa you have there and I find it most interesting because it appears to be a genuine fighting example, without the dress hilt covering etc. I am not sure that I would classify this or other variations that occur 'tribal' variation, more likely armorer variations.

As Emanuel has noted, there were distinct influences from outside the North African sphere that inspired the weapons there, in the case of the flyssa, in my opinion most likely the Ottoman yataghan, though considerable debate remains. There were of course distinct Caucasian influences via their presence in the Ottoman forces, and this and the presence of weapons from these regions has often come up in discussion on the forums over the years.
We are all well aware of the 'dreaded Black Sea yataghans' ...which most resemble deeply recurved flyssa blades mounted with distinctly horned hilts, and it is debated whether these were actually a North African variant of the flyssa rather than thier largely proven domicile near Black Sea regions.

These, much like the flyssa, were latecomers to the edged weapon spectrum, and the earliest examples of flyssa are thought to be from c.1820's while the Black Sea yataghans likely appeared about mid 19th c. It would seem that most flyssas of the familiar brass hilted form date from mid to the end of the 19th c. and probably ceased functionality of course with the increased use of firearms, as typical of these times.

The curved examples as shown by Kronckew, in my opinion are not a development of the flyssa, and though often termed either flyssa, nimcha or even yataghan in very loose descriptions, seem to me to have derived most likely from European naval dirks of the 19th c. These are often very nicely made, as the example shown by Kronckew, but I think are elements of costume that are found throughout Saharan regions and mostly 20th c.

Most terminology used in describing these weapons is typically misapplied as in the case of these dirk type weapons, and the terms are actually general terms that have become used colloquially by collectors for certain forms.
The term 'flyssa' is thought to be a French adaption describing the Iflisen tribe of Berbers, who are considered the origin and source of manufacture of these distinct swords. The term is applied equally to all variations in size of these weapons, which goes from full sword size to the smaller daggers.

The term nimcha, according to Elgood, is basically an Arab term meaning small sword (nim, cha or sha) and of course seems misapplied to the full size sabres of Morocco distinguished by this term (actually more often called sa'if).
I hope S.Anizi will elaborate on that, as there is likely more to this. It would seem actually that the term would be more correct for the 'dirks' that are often labeled flyssa, nimcha or yataghan

On the octagonal bolster, which is noted here, I would defer to Ham or Ariel who have more experience at handling Caucasian weapons than myself, but in this example it does seem in character with flyssas whose hilts are faceted. With reference to the octagonal section, I have often wondered if this could in some cases associate with the Islamic eight pointed star, much has been suggested in certain architectural perspective. While this may be irrelevant, particularly in discussion of a Berber weapon, it seemed worthy of note in a general sense.

Best regards,
Jim

[Emanuel]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The curved examples as shown by Kronckew, in my opinion are not a development of the flyssa, and though often termed either flyssa, nimcha or even yataghan in very loose descriptions, seem to me to have derived most likely from European naval dirks of the 19th c. These are often very nicely made, as the example shown by Kronckew, but I think are elements of costume that are found throughout Saharan regions and mostly 20th c.
...
The term nimcha, according to Elgood, is basically an Arab term meaning small sword (nim, cha or sha) and of course seems misapplied to the full size sabres of Morocco distinguished by this term (actually more often called sa'if).

Hello Jim!

ErnestoJuan and I had discussed these strange variants and some point, and we looked as some interesting examples on ebay. I think they're the original small nimcha, which was then made into the tourist dance variant with long, curved and very thin blade cut from sheet metal, and the extremely large handle and pommel that looks like those of the saif-nimcha. I like the attribution to European naval dirks, thanks for that . I guess these are often mistaken as flyssa because of the similar decorative scheme - often the same geometric motifs and the same carving on scabbards and handles. I understand that their blades are much thinner than those of true flyssa, is this correct?

Yup, I definitely like the study of ethnographic arms!! A healthy, albeit costly obsession.

Emanuel

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Emanuel,
Exactly right!! Good point on the associations to the other weapons via the decorative schemes, that does seem very reasonable, especially coupled with the terminology difficulties. The semantics in ethnographic weapons terminology becomes even more maddening in spheres such as the Indonesian, where a weapon may be called by different names even in various villages. There, much as in the Indian subcontinent, the variation in dialects often becomes profuse, even though the variation may be subtle in degree.
The blades on the true flyssa are actually very well forged, and typically actually quite heavy. I have always considered them rather awkward because the length and weight of the blade seems disproportionate to the relatively small, unguarded grip. But, as I claim no true understanding of martial arts, and especially the exact manner in which these were used, I may be off track

Actually I hadn't noticed the idea on the naval dirks before myself, as I hadnt really none much on the small variants prior to this. While working on another project, I came across a number of portraits of European naval officers with these dirks, and the association seemed pretty compelling. It always seems that serendipity is one of the most driving forces in the study of these weapons and yes, it is very, very addicting, and often pretty costly.
That is most often the theme here in our group therapy session!!!
But always fun, thanks for being here too !!

All the best,
Jim

[Emanuel]

Just watch Jim, in a few years I'll undertake my super-massive flyssa study in Algeria and the large flyssa collections of the world and publish something close to "definitive"
I'll dig into all the archives and find that ellusive ethnographic report that tells us how these beauties were forged, when/where and all that

Continuing to enjoy the therapy (and getting sicker ),
Emanuel

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Manolo

... I understand that their blades are much thinner than those of true flyssa, is this correct?
...

just for further information, the blade on my curved knife above is 6mm wide at the spine near the guard, tapering down to the point. the guard is fairly thin brass and not really suitable as a defensive guard, being more decorative, though it is satisfactory for preventing the hand sliding down onto the blade. the blade is razor sharp and appears to be a concave grind rather than flat. the grip is decorated brass sheet over wood, held by a large number of small flathead brads set flush to the brass in a decorative straight line pattern.

[Emanuel]

hmm that means business. So let's put this down to a knife variant borrowing charcteristics from European examples, interpreted in the way of local precedents, and slowly converted or adapted to ceremonial uses and the tourist trade. Yours is the original from which the tourist ones developed then.

Emanuel