Blades and horseshoes??!!

[katana]

Thanks Wolviex,
I did put the phrase on a 'translation' web site....and got just 'Mary' .......foolishly I didn't consider the 'V' 's to be 'U' 's etc....thankyou for the explanation.

As to the "natural forging" I agree with the other statements that this (probably) refers to the slight 'hardening' of the iron with the constant impact of the shoe on ground. ..... a 'romantic' notion I feel as this effect AFAIK is only slight.

[Lew]

Hi All

Just to throw in my 2 cents. Why would 19th century swordsmiths in Europe bother with making blades out of horse shoes which were basically wrought iron? The sword makers were all pretty well established in their trade and had access to better sources of steel such as cast steel and blister steel. It sounds like an urban legend to me

Lew

[wolviex]

That's a good point Lew. We are talking about 17th/18th century sabres, but it doesn't change anything.

But as an advocate of evil I can answer your question - they bothered, because it was cheaper

And another thought! We can agree there were in use horseshoes as an additional material during the process. But I think not only, or are they something special? I would use also spurs, broken blades etc.... So what would make horseshoes so special that Author pointed it out - nothing? a curiosity of an object? ...

[Jeff D]

"The hammering of the iron, at first by hand and later by water powered hammers, played a necessary part in the production of quality iron. The slag which remained in the wrought iron from the earliest smelting processes and later from any of the several pig iron refining processes, was evenly distributed as uniformly oriented, elongated threads or "stringers" throughout the hot iron by the blows of the hammer. This fibrous structure was the source of good toughness and corrosion resistance of wrought iron. The best wrought iron would contain as many as 250,000 uniformly orientated hairlike stringers of slag per square inch of cross section. Only after the earliest studies of iron with the microscope towards the end of the nineteeth century were the reasons behind the beneficial effect of hammering well understood- but awareness had come long before understanding. In the early descriptions of iron and steel making, old horseshoes and horseshoe nails are frequently cited as a necessary ingredient of the best quality products. This practice is an extension of the well foundered but somewhat obsessive commitment to hammering. The constant pounding of these shoes and nails on cobblestone pavements served as hammering which, it was thought, continued to improve the iron of which they were made even as they were being worn beyond usefulness."

Pg 22-23 Fighting Iron A metal handbook for the Arms Collectors 1999 by Art Gogan.

Hope this clears things up a little.
Jeff

[Rick]

Possibly this picture of a section of an ancient keris blade may illustrate this wrought iron stranding phenomenon.

[Jim McDougall]

Interesting note on the horseshoes etc. used in forging these blades. I am the first to admit my limited understanding of metallurgy, but I find the perspective of finding folklore from observing normal practical functionality quite common during those times. Consider the very superstitious and wary manner which blacksmiths were perceived, and of course the intriguing stories that were often contrived about them.

If the blacksmith was observed adding old horseshoes into the crucible in making steel for blades, of course it is quite possible such deliberate use might be interpreted by superstitious observers for special or even occult purpose. However, I somehow get the impression the author (and I have a vague idea of who it might be may have deviously meant the comment 'tongue in cheek' with reference to the plethora of folklore concerning arms and armor during these times.

In addition to what Jeff has already added concerning horsehoes and nails being used in making steel, I found the following, which may be the reference Jens had noted,
"...in the Persian method of casting Damascus steel small segments of hammered and polished soft iron or wrought iron, or small hammered and polished pieces of iron salvaged from worn horseshoes and nails were placed in a crucible with carboniferous materials".
"On Damascus Steel", Dr.L.Figiel, 1991, p.18.

I would imagine that heaps of discarded horseshoes at a blacksmith shop where horses were of course reshod would have been a quite accessible commodity for this process.

Best regards,
Jim

[wolviex]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

"The hammering of the iron, at first by hand and later by water powered hammers, played a necessary part in the production of quality iron. The slag which remained in the wrought iron from the earliest smelting processes and later from any of the several pig iron refining processes, was evenly distributed as uniformly oriented, elongated threads or "stringers" throughout the hot iron by the blows of the hammer. This fibrous structure was the source of good toughness and corrosion resistance of wrought iron. The best wrought iron would contain as many as 250,000 uniformly orientated hairlike stringers of slag per square inch of cross section. Only after the earliest studies of iron with the microscope towards the end of the nineteeth century were the reasons behind the beneficial effect of hammering well understood- but awareness had come long before understanding. In the early descriptions of iron and steel making, old horseshoes and horseshoe nails are frequently cited as a necessary ingredient of the best quality products. This practice is an extension of the well foundered but somewhat obsessive commitment to hammering. The constant pounding of these shoes and nails on cobblestone pavements served as hammering which, it was thought, continued to improve the iron of which they were made even as they were being worn beyond usefulness."

Pg 22-23 Fighting Iron A metal handbook for the Arms Collectors 1999 by Art Gogan.

Hope this clears things up a little.
Jeff

IT IS QUITE AMAZING. I think I should RETURN ALL HONOR TO THE AUTHOR. Both are deffinietely writing about the same process, and there is of course one 'but' - Polish author could just use the same book for collectors as Jeff has.
If ANYONE have ANYTHING like Jeff what would proof, let's call it further "natural forging" please post it here!

[Jeff D]

Hi Michal,

I have no absolute proof, but I have worked with horses and their shoes all my life. The phenomenon of their shoes lasting longer after continued use has been quite noticable to me. Since most blacksmiths were also the farriers I can't imagine this passing their observation. I don't think the shoes were remelted in a crucible, rather they were hammer welded together, this process would also add more carbon to the product. The process of adding more carbon as well as further organizing the stringers with continued hammering during the forging of a blade intuitively makes sense.
I would also like to hear what Greg, Rick and the other smiths have to say on this topic.

All the Best.
Jeff

[Gt Obach]

Hi
making some assumptions here... - that the material is wrought iron... of high quality.
in my opinion it would be very desirable for blade making... a high quality wrought iron in a damascus mix... for example... a file steel will have a very high carbon level.. to cut it down abit for a sword blade, i'd mix in some wrought iron into the folding process. After so many welding heats, the carbon kinda evens out and you have a lovely folded pattern in the blade.

are the horse shoes and nails carburized ?

reason i ask is that maybe a good reason to add them if they are..

if you've used some very low quality wrought iron... and tried to make a nail out of it... you'd have a very hard time to hammer it through wood without predrilling a hole... .. it would be like hammering a copper nail into wood... it would buckle if too much resistance is there...

maybe the same is of horse shoes.. they maybe of a high quality wrought iron..... unlike some of the wagon wheels/tires ...those are usually low quality
I imagine that the horses feet would also test out the wrought for any weaknesses or large slag inclusions ... like a proof test

also for a sword steel ... you want a very high quality wrought iron/steel..... look at the japanese swords... very high quality bloom steels..... with many folds to make the steel as homogeneous as possible.

by folding the bloom over and over... you turn a low quality muck bar/wrought iron into a higher quality wrought.(very fine and numerous strands)
-- wrought iron chains are usually high quality

so by starting out with a decent quality wrought iron... you'd spare yourself alot of work folding muck bar into a better wrought iron

Wrought iron is a beautiful material to add to damascus... because it loves to forge weld ... it sticks like glue with very little flux..... due to the self fluxing nature of the siliceous slags in the metal..... with good welds... you increase your chance of a very good sword !

after the welding process is done... you'd have a hard time telling what materials were used... as long as the carbon level is decent for a sword... -you could etch the sword to look for pattern welds... but if it was folded many times, it may be very homogenous
-- I think the Polish sabers were very good ... so the smiths must have known what they were doing...

Recycling is also important... good iron and steels, it only makes sense to reuse them..

- i still to this day hunt for wrought iron... over the holidays i brought back a 2foot by 1"by1/4" bar of wrought on the plane ride back... (checked luggage ofcourse)

take care
Greg