Blades and horseshoes??!!

wolviex · 25th January 2007, 05:38 PM

Dear All!

So it seems that statement made in book was just a general thought that leaves some doubts for the reader, but indeed we can agree horseshoes migh have been used in a process of making blade. But it still seems to me it is impossible to make entire blade only with horseshoes, not such good one as seen with hussars sabres anyway. So the thought of the author was just a bit to short to explain it properly IMO.

And I see most of you left "natural forging" without comment...

Katana: no there is no special talismanic, mythologic or historic connection with horseshoe in Poland except prejudice that hanged in house can bring a bit of luck, but it isn't such important for Polish minds to have any significance in art or craftmenship. And yes, you can see the sign of horseshoe on few Polish coat-of -arms, but only on few ones. There are also many other different symbols and objects used in very rich Polish heraldy, and all depends on family history or taste of noblemen, so the plot won't take us far that way - sorry.
The full inscription on the blade is IEZVS MARIA IOZEF DEVS SPES MEA where "V" is made as "U" - it is easier to engrave or stamp, and "I" as "J". It means in English "JESUS MARY JOSEPH, GOD IS MY HOPE".

Regards!

katana · 25th January 2007, 05:50 PM

Thanks Wolviex,
I did put the phrase on a 'translation' web site....and got just 'Mary' .......foolishly I didn't consider the 'V' 's to be 'U' 's etc....thankyou for the explanation.

As to the "natural forging" I agree with the other statements that this (probably) refers to the slight 'hardening' of the iron with the constant impact of the shoe on ground. ..... a 'romantic' notion I feel as this effect AFAIK is only slight.

Lew · 25th January 2007, 06:20 PM

Hi All

Just to throw in my 2 cents. Why would 19th century swordsmiths in Europe bother with making blades out of horse shoes which were basically wrought iron? The sword makers were all pretty well established in their trade and had access to better sources of steel such as cast steel and blister steel. It sounds like an urban legend to me

Lew

wolviex · 25th January 2007, 06:35 PM

That's a good point Lew. We are talking about 17th/18th century sabres, but it doesn't change anything.

But as an advocate of evil I can answer your question - they bothered, because it was cheaper

And another thought! We can agree there were in use horseshoes as an additional material during the process. But I think not only, or are they something special? I would use also spurs, broken blades etc.... So what would make horseshoes so special that Author pointed it out - nothing? a curiosity of an object? ...

Jeff D · 26th January 2007, 12:06 AM

"The hammering of the iron, at first by hand and later by water powered hammers, played a necessary part in the production of quality iron. The slag which remained in the wrought iron from the earliest smelting processes and later from any of the several pig iron refining processes, was evenly distributed as uniformly oriented, elongated threads or "stringers" throughout the hot iron by the blows of the hammer. This fibrous structure was the source of good toughness and corrosion resistance of wrought iron. The best wrought iron would contain as many as 250,000 uniformly orientated hairlike stringers of slag per square inch of cross section. Only after the earliest studies of iron with the microscope towards the end of the nineteeth century were the reasons behind the beneficial effect of hammering well understood- but awareness had come long before understanding. In the early descriptions of iron and steel making, old horseshoes and horseshoe nails are frequently cited as a necessary ingredient of the best quality products. This practice is an extension of the well foundered but somewhat obsessive commitment to hammering. The constant pounding of these shoes and nails on cobblestone pavements served as hammering which, it was thought, continued to improve the iron of which they were made even as they were being worn beyond usefulness."

Pg 22-23 Fighting Iron A metal handbook for the Arms Collectors 1999 by Art Gogan.

Hope this clears things up a little.
Jeff

Rick · 26th January 2007, 01:07 AM

Possibly this picture of a section of an ancient keris blade may illustrate this wrought iron stranding phenomenon.

Jim McDougall · 26th January 2007, 01:20 AM

Interesting note on the horseshoes etc. used in forging these blades. I am the first to admit my limited understanding of metallurgy, but I find the perspective of finding folklore from observing normal practical functionality quite common during those times. Consider the very superstitious and wary manner which blacksmiths were perceived, and of course the intriguing stories that were often contrived about them.

If the blacksmith was observed adding old horseshoes into the crucible in making steel for blades, of course it is quite possible such deliberate use might be interpreted by superstitious observers for special or even occult purpose. However, I somehow get the impression the author (and I have a vague idea of who it might be

may have deviously meant the comment 'tongue in cheek' with reference to the plethora of folklore concerning arms and armor during these times.

In addition to what Jeff has already added concerning horsehoes and nails being used in making steel, I found the following, which may be the reference Jens had noted,
"...in the Persian method of casting Damascus steel small segments of hammered and polished soft iron or wrought iron, or small hammered and polished pieces of iron salvaged from worn horseshoes and nails were placed in a crucible with carboniferous materials".
"On Damascus Steel", Dr.L.Figiel, 1991, p.18.

I would imagine that heaps of discarded horseshoes at a blacksmith shop where horses were of course reshod would have been a quite accessible commodity for this process.

Best regards,
Jim

wolviex · 26th January 2007, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff D

"The hammering of the iron, at first by hand and later by water powered hammers, played a necessary part in the production of quality iron. The slag which remained in the wrought iron from the earliest smelting processes and later from any of the several pig iron refining processes, was evenly distributed as uniformly oriented, elongated threads or "stringers" throughout the hot iron by the blows of the hammer. This fibrous structure was the source of good toughness and corrosion resistance of wrought iron. The best wrought iron would contain as many as 250,000 uniformly orientated hairlike stringers of slag per square inch of cross section. Only after the earliest studies of iron with the microscope towards the end of the nineteeth century were the reasons behind the beneficial effect of hammering well understood- but awareness had come long before understanding. In the early descriptions of iron and steel making, old horseshoes and horseshoe nails are frequently cited as a necessary ingredient of the best quality products. This practice is an extension of the well foundered but somewhat obsessive commitment to hammering. The constant pounding of these shoes and nails on cobblestone pavements served as hammering which, it was thought, continued to improve the iron of which they were made even as they were being worn beyond usefulness."

Pg 22-23 Fighting Iron A metal handbook for the Arms Collectors 1999 by Art Gogan.

Hope this clears things up a little.
Jeff

IT IS QUITE AMAZING. I think I should RETURN ALL HONOR TO THE AUTHOR. Both are deffinietely writing about the same process, and there is of course one 'but' - Polish author could just use the same book for collectors as Jeff has.
If ANYONE have ANYTHING like Jeff what would proof, let's call it further "natural forging" please post it here!

Jeff D · 26th January 2007, 08:16 AM

Hi Michal,

I have no absolute proof, but I have worked with horses and their shoes all my life. The phenomenon of their shoes lasting longer after continued use has been quite noticable to me. Since most blacksmiths were also the farriers I can't imagine this passing their observation. I don't think the shoes were remelted in a crucible, rather they were hammer welded together, this process would also add more carbon to the product. The process of adding more carbon as well as further organizing the stringers with continued hammering during the forging of a blade intuitively makes sense.
I would also like to hear what Greg, Rick and the other smiths have to say on this topic.

All the Best.
Jeff

26th January 2007, 01:07 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Possibly this picture of a section of an ancient keris blade may illustrate this wrought iron stranding phenomenon. Attached Images

25th January 2007, 05:38 PM	#1
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Dear All! So it seems that statement made in book was just a general thought that leaves some doubts for the reader, but indeed we can agree horseshoes migh have been used in a process of making blade. But it still seems to me it is impossible to make entire blade only with horseshoes, not such good one as seen with hussars sabres anyway. So the thought of the author was just a bit to short to explain it properly IMO. And I see most of you left "natural forging" without comment... Katana: no there is no special talismanic, mythologic or historic connection with horseshoe in Poland except prejudice that hanged in house can bring a bit of luck, but it isn't such important for Polish minds to have any significance in art or craftmenship. And yes, you can see the sign of horseshoe on few Polish coat-of -arms, but only on few ones. There are also many other different symbols and objects used in very rich Polish heraldy, and all depends on family history or taste of noblemen, so the plot won't take us far that way - sorry. The full inscription on the blade is IEZVS MARIA IOZEF DEVS SPES MEA where "V" is made as "U" - it is easier to engrave or stamp, and "I" as "J". It means in English "JESUS MARY JOSEPH, GOD IS MY HOPE". Regards!

25th January 2007, 05:50 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Thanks Wolviex, I did put the phrase on a 'translation' web site....and got just 'Mary' .......foolishly I didn't consider the 'V' 's to be 'U' 's etc....thankyou for the explanation. As to the "natural forging" I agree with the other statements that this (probably) refers to the slight 'hardening' of the iron with the constant impact of the shoe on ground. ..... a 'romantic' notion I feel as this effect AFAIK is only slight.

25th January 2007, 06:20 PM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Hi All Just to throw in my 2 cents. Why would 19th century swordsmiths in Europe bother with making blades out of horse shoes which were basically wrought iron? The sword makers were all pretty well established in their trade and had access to better sources of steel such as cast steel and blister steel. It sounds like an urban legend to me Lew

25th January 2007, 06:35 PM	#4
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	That's a good point Lew. We are talking about 17th/18th century sabres, but it doesn't change anything. But as an advocate of evil I can answer your question - they bothered, because it was cheaper And another thought! We can agree there were in use horseshoes as an additional material during the process. But I think not only, or are they something special? I would use also spurs, broken blades etc.... So what would make horseshoes so special that Author pointed it out - nothing? a curiosity of an object? ...

26th January 2007, 12:06 AM	#5
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	"The hammering of the iron, at first by hand and later by water powered hammers, played a necessary part in the production of quality iron. The slag which remained in the wrought iron from the earliest smelting processes and later from any of the several pig iron refining processes, was evenly distributed as uniformly oriented, elongated threads or "stringers" throughout the hot iron by the blows of the hammer. This fibrous structure was the source of good toughness and corrosion resistance of wrought iron. The best wrought iron would contain as many as 250,000 uniformly orientated hairlike stringers of slag per square inch of cross section. Only after the earliest studies of iron with the microscope towards the end of the nineteeth century were the reasons behind the beneficial effect of hammering well understood- but awareness had come long before understanding. In the early descriptions of iron and steel making, old horseshoes and horseshoe nails are frequently cited as a necessary ingredient of the best quality products. This practice is an extension of the well foundered but somewhat obsessive commitment to hammering. The constant pounding of these shoes and nails on cobblestone pavements served as hammering which, it was thought, continued to improve the iron of which they were made even as they were being worn beyond usefulness." Pg 22-23 Fighting Iron A metal handbook for the Arms Collectors 1999 by Art Gogan. Hope this clears things up a little. Jeff

26th January 2007, 01:20 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Interesting note on the horseshoes etc. used in forging these blades. I am the first to admit my limited understanding of metallurgy, but I find the perspective of finding folklore from observing normal practical functionality quite common during those times. Consider the very superstitious and wary manner which blacksmiths were perceived, and of course the intriguing stories that were often contrived about them. If the blacksmith was observed adding old horseshoes into the crucible in making steel for blades, of course it is quite possible such deliberate use might be interpreted by superstitious observers for special or even occult purpose. However, I somehow get the impression the author (and I have a vague idea of who it might be may have deviously meant the comment 'tongue in cheek' with reference to the plethora of folklore concerning arms and armor during these times. In addition to what Jeff has already added concerning horsehoes and nails being used in making steel, I found the following, which may be the reference Jens had noted, "...in the Persian method of casting Damascus steel small segments of hammered and polished soft iron or wrought iron, or small hammered and polished pieces of iron salvaged from worn horseshoes and nails were placed in a crucible with carboniferous materials". "On Damascus Steel", Dr.L.Figiel, 1991, p.18. I would imagine that heaps of discarded horseshoes at a blacksmith shop where horses were of course reshod would have been a quite accessible commodity for this process. Best regards, Jim

26th January 2007, 08:16 AM	#9
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Michal, I have no absolute proof, but I have worked with horses and their shoes all my life. The phenomenon of their shoes lasting longer after continued use has been quite noticable to me. Since most blacksmiths were also the farriers I can't imagine this passing their observation. I don't think the shoes were remelted in a crucible, rather they were hammer welded together, this process would also add more carbon to the product. The process of adding more carbon as well as further organizing the stringers with continued hammering during the forging of a blade intuitively makes sense. I would also like to hear what Greg, Rick and the other smiths have to say on this topic. All the Best. Jeff