Blades and horseshoes??!!

Pukka Bundook · 25th January 2007, 03:39 PM

Hi Fernando,
I wasn't saying the use of horseshoes or nails was a myth, just that any wonderful properties added by the horse pounding the iron would be lost in the forging.
William Fullard, the best barrel-maker in London in early 19th Century used horseshoe nail stubs almost exclsively. ( poor folks made a poor living by gathering them along the great london road!)
I'm sure swordsmiths would compete for this source of pure (at that time) iron!
Best wishes,
Richard.

katana · 25th January 2007, 05:02 PM

Could it be that a sword forged with the inclusion of horse-shoes may be more talismatic than functional. Similar to the use of 'meteorite' iron in SEA swords / knives.
The 'soft' iron used for horseshoes was a 'necessity' so that the shoes could 'wear in' to the natural 'gait' of the horse. The low carbon iron would provide a 'forgiving' spine or core to a sword or would be a useful 'addition' to a 'pattern welded' blade. But an entire blade forged from iron with little or no carbon would not produce a good cutting edge.....essential for a Sabre.

Wolviex, please, what is the translation of the inscription IEZVS MARIA IOZEF?

Here is a link about the beliefs of many cultures with regards to iron and horseshoes.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/etc/mhs/mhs09.htm

As the thread was about Polish Sabres, I found this about Polish coats of arms...these particularly have horseshoes within them.....it could suggest the importance of 'the horseshoe' ..... a reference to Polish history/mythology ?

http://209.85.129.104/search?q=cache...&ct=clnk&cd=14

wolviex · 25th January 2007, 05:38 PM

Dear All!

So it seems that statement made in book was just a general thought that leaves some doubts for the reader, but indeed we can agree horseshoes migh have been used in a process of making blade. But it still seems to me it is impossible to make entire blade only with horseshoes, not such good one as seen with hussars sabres anyway. So the thought of the author was just a bit to short to explain it properly IMO.

And I see most of you left "natural forging" without comment...

Katana: no there is no special talismanic, mythologic or historic connection with horseshoe in Poland except prejudice that hanged in house can bring a bit of luck, but it isn't such important for Polish minds to have any significance in art or craftmenship. And yes, you can see the sign of horseshoe on few Polish coat-of -arms, but only on few ones. There are also many other different symbols and objects used in very rich Polish heraldy, and all depends on family history or taste of noblemen, so the plot won't take us far that way - sorry.
The full inscription on the blade is IEZVS MARIA IOZEF DEVS SPES MEA where "V" is made as "U" - it is easier to engrave or stamp, and "I" as "J". It means in English "JESUS MARY JOSEPH, GOD IS MY HOPE".

Regards!

katana · 25th January 2007, 05:50 PM

Thanks Wolviex,
I did put the phrase on a 'translation' web site....and got just 'Mary' .......foolishly I didn't consider the 'V' 's to be 'U' 's etc....thankyou for the explanation.

As to the "natural forging" I agree with the other statements that this (probably) refers to the slight 'hardening' of the iron with the constant impact of the shoe on ground. ..... a 'romantic' notion I feel as this effect AFAIK is only slight.

Lew · 25th January 2007, 06:20 PM

Hi All

Just to throw in my 2 cents. Why would 19th century swordsmiths in Europe bother with making blades out of horse shoes which were basically wrought iron? The sword makers were all pretty well established in their trade and had access to better sources of steel such as cast steel and blister steel. It sounds like an urban legend to me

Lew

wolviex · 25th January 2007, 06:35 PM

That's a good point Lew. We are talking about 17th/18th century sabres, but it doesn't change anything.

But as an advocate of evil I can answer your question - they bothered, because it was cheaper

And another thought! We can agree there were in use horseshoes as an additional material during the process. But I think not only, or are they something special? I would use also spurs, broken blades etc.... So what would make horseshoes so special that Author pointed it out - nothing? a curiosity of an object? ...

Jeff D · 26th January 2007, 12:06 AM

"The hammering of the iron, at first by hand and later by water powered hammers, played a necessary part in the production of quality iron. The slag which remained in the wrought iron from the earliest smelting processes and later from any of the several pig iron refining processes, was evenly distributed as uniformly oriented, elongated threads or "stringers" throughout the hot iron by the blows of the hammer. This fibrous structure was the source of good toughness and corrosion resistance of wrought iron. The best wrought iron would contain as many as 250,000 uniformly orientated hairlike stringers of slag per square inch of cross section. Only after the earliest studies of iron with the microscope towards the end of the nineteeth century were the reasons behind the beneficial effect of hammering well understood- but awareness had come long before understanding. In the early descriptions of iron and steel making, old horseshoes and horseshoe nails are frequently cited as a necessary ingredient of the best quality products. This practice is an extension of the well foundered but somewhat obsessive commitment to hammering. The constant pounding of these shoes and nails on cobblestone pavements served as hammering which, it was thought, continued to improve the iron of which they were made even as they were being worn beyond usefulness."

Pg 22-23 Fighting Iron A metal handbook for the Arms Collectors 1999 by Art Gogan.

Hope this clears things up a little.
Jeff

25th January 2007, 03:39 PM	#1
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Blades and horseshoes??! Hi Fernando, I wasn't saying the use of horseshoes or nails was a myth, just that any wonderful properties added by the horse pounding the iron would be lost in the forging. William Fullard, the best barrel-maker in London in early 19th Century used horseshoe nail stubs almost exclsively. ( poor folks made a poor living by gathering them along the great london road!) I'm sure swordsmiths would compete for this source of pure (at that time) iron! Best wishes, Richard.

25th January 2007, 05:02 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Could it be that a sword forged with the inclusion of horse-shoes may be more talismatic than functional. Similar to the use of 'meteorite' iron in SEA swords / knives. The 'soft' iron used for horseshoes was a 'necessity' so that the shoes could 'wear in' to the natural 'gait' of the horse. The low carbon iron would provide a 'forgiving' spine or core to a sword or would be a useful 'addition' to a 'pattern welded' blade. But an entire blade forged from iron with little or no carbon would not produce a good cutting edge.....essential for a Sabre. Wolviex, please, what is the translation of the inscription IEZVS MARIA IOZEF? Here is a link about the beliefs of many cultures with regards to iron and horseshoes. http://www.sacred-texts.com/etc/mhs/mhs09.htm As the thread was about Polish Sabres, I found this about Polish coats of arms...these particularly have horseshoes within them.....it could suggest the importance of 'the horseshoe' ..... a reference to Polish history/mythology ? http://209.85.129.104/search?q=cache...&ct=clnk&cd=14 Last edited by katana; 25th January 2007 at 05:22 PM.

25th January 2007, 05:38 PM	#3
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Dear All! So it seems that statement made in book was just a general thought that leaves some doubts for the reader, but indeed we can agree horseshoes migh have been used in a process of making blade. But it still seems to me it is impossible to make entire blade only with horseshoes, not such good one as seen with hussars sabres anyway. So the thought of the author was just a bit to short to explain it properly IMO. And I see most of you left "natural forging" without comment... Katana: no there is no special talismanic, mythologic or historic connection with horseshoe in Poland except prejudice that hanged in house can bring a bit of luck, but it isn't such important for Polish minds to have any significance in art or craftmenship. And yes, you can see the sign of horseshoe on few Polish coat-of -arms, but only on few ones. There are also many other different symbols and objects used in very rich Polish heraldy, and all depends on family history or taste of noblemen, so the plot won't take us far that way - sorry. The full inscription on the blade is IEZVS MARIA IOZEF DEVS SPES MEA where "V" is made as "U" - it is easier to engrave or stamp, and "I" as "J". It means in English "JESUS MARY JOSEPH, GOD IS MY HOPE". Regards!

25th January 2007, 05:50 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Thanks Wolviex, I did put the phrase on a 'translation' web site....and got just 'Mary' .......foolishly I didn't consider the 'V' 's to be 'U' 's etc....thankyou for the explanation. As to the "natural forging" I agree with the other statements that this (probably) refers to the slight 'hardening' of the iron with the constant impact of the shoe on ground. ..... a 'romantic' notion I feel as this effect AFAIK is only slight.

25th January 2007, 06:20 PM	#5
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Hi All Just to throw in my 2 cents. Why would 19th century swordsmiths in Europe bother with making blades out of horse shoes which were basically wrought iron? The sword makers were all pretty well established in their trade and had access to better sources of steel such as cast steel and blister steel. It sounds like an urban legend to me Lew

25th January 2007, 06:35 PM	#6
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	That's a good point Lew. We are talking about 17th/18th century sabres, but it doesn't change anything. But as an advocate of evil I can answer your question - they bothered, because it was cheaper And another thought! We can agree there were in use horseshoes as an additional material during the process. But I think not only, or are they something special? I would use also spurs, broken blades etc.... So what would make horseshoes so special that Author pointed it out - nothing? a curiosity of an object? ...

26th January 2007, 12:06 AM	#7
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	"The hammering of the iron, at first by hand and later by water powered hammers, played a necessary part in the production of quality iron. The slag which remained in the wrought iron from the earliest smelting processes and later from any of the several pig iron refining processes, was evenly distributed as uniformly oriented, elongated threads or "stringers" throughout the hot iron by the blows of the hammer. This fibrous structure was the source of good toughness and corrosion resistance of wrought iron. The best wrought iron would contain as many as 250,000 uniformly orientated hairlike stringers of slag per square inch of cross section. Only after the earliest studies of iron with the microscope towards the end of the nineteeth century were the reasons behind the beneficial effect of hammering well understood- but awareness had come long before understanding. In the early descriptions of iron and steel making, old horseshoes and horseshoe nails are frequently cited as a necessary ingredient of the best quality products. This practice is an extension of the well foundered but somewhat obsessive commitment to hammering. The constant pounding of these shoes and nails on cobblestone pavements served as hammering which, it was thought, continued to improve the iron of which they were made even as they were being worn beyond usefulness." Pg 22-23 Fighting Iron A metal handbook for the Arms Collectors 1999 by Art Gogan. Hope this clears things up a little. Jeff