Blades and horseshoes??!!

wolviex · 25th January 2007, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Hi Michal,

Yes old horseshoes, nails and used iron pieces were mixed with other kinds of iron, when forging blades. I don’t remember where I read it; it could be in Persian Steel by James Allan and Brian Gilmour. But i have never heard about 'natural forging'

.

Jens

Dear Jens!
Well, I'm not surprise at all, it is obvious of using different iron objects and reforge them into different piece.
But the statement written in the book sounds like they used especially and only horseshoes for hussars sabres blades - what imo sounds like some kind of misunderstanding.
Anyway I'm waiting for other voices too. Thank you all for your opinions!

Pukka Bundook · 25th January 2007, 03:49 PM

Any pounding and compacting of the iron shoe produced by the horse, would be compltely lost anyway, in the forging process.

You hear the same thing, re. stub-iron twist gun barrels, (barrels made from horseshoe nail stubs)...........The pounding makes a purer product therefore a higher quality barrel.
as above, lost in forging process,..... but a good source for nice pure iron!

fernando · 25th January 2007, 04:08 PM

Horse shoes for swords, certainly not a myth.
One of the most famous resources for gun barrels in ( at least ) the 18th century, was the forging of horse shoes. Not that they forged while being used, but certainly in later treatment.
The experts can expand about this.It is written in many works.
fernando

Jeff D · 25th January 2007, 04:21 PM

Hi Michal,

I have read somewhere that repeatedly working the iron will make it harder that is why horseshoes and nails where often used in many cultures. I will try to find the references tonight when i have time.
I have no first hand knowledge about making knives/swords but I have observed that the second half of a horseshoe wears much slower than the first.

Hope this helps.
Jeff

Pukka Bundook · 25th January 2007, 04:39 PM

Hi Fernando,
I wasn't saying the use of horseshoes or nails was a myth, just that any wonderful properties added by the horse pounding the iron would be lost in the forging.
William Fullard, the best barrel-maker in London in early 19th Century used horseshoe nail stubs almost exclsively. ( poor folks made a poor living by gathering them along the great london road!)
I'm sure swordsmiths would compete for this source of pure (at that time) iron!
Best wishes,
Richard.

katana · 25th January 2007, 06:02 PM

Could it be that a sword forged with the inclusion of horse-shoes may be more talismatic than functional. Similar to the use of 'meteorite' iron in SEA swords / knives.
The 'soft' iron used for horseshoes was a 'necessity' so that the shoes could 'wear in' to the natural 'gait' of the horse. The low carbon iron would provide a 'forgiving' spine or core to a sword or would be a useful 'addition' to a 'pattern welded' blade. But an entire blade forged from iron with little or no carbon would not produce a good cutting edge.....essential for a Sabre.

Wolviex, please, what is the translation of the inscription IEZVS MARIA IOZEF?

Here is a link about the beliefs of many cultures with regards to iron and horseshoes.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/etc/mhs/mhs09.htm

As the thread was about Polish Sabres, I found this about Polish coats of arms...these particularly have horseshoes within them.....it could suggest the importance of 'the horseshoe' ..... a reference to Polish history/mythology ?

http://209.85.129.104/search?q=cache...&ct=clnk&cd=14

wolviex · 25th January 2007, 06:38 PM

Dear All!

So it seems that statement made in book was just a general thought that leaves some doubts for the reader, but indeed we can agree horseshoes migh have been used in a process of making blade. But it still seems to me it is impossible to make entire blade only with horseshoes, not such good one as seen with hussars sabres anyway. So the thought of the author was just a bit to short to explain it properly IMO.

And I see most of you left "natural forging" without comment...

Katana: no there is no special talismanic, mythologic or historic connection with horseshoe in Poland except prejudice that hanged in house can bring a bit of luck, but it isn't such important for Polish minds to have any significance in art or craftmenship. And yes, you can see the sign of horseshoe on few Polish coat-of -arms, but only on few ones. There are also many other different symbols and objects used in very rich Polish heraldy, and all depends on family history or taste of noblemen, so the plot won't take us far that way - sorry.
The full inscription on the blade is IEZVS MARIA IOZEF DEVS SPES MEA where "V" is made as "U" - it is easier to engrave or stamp, and "I" as "J". It means in English "JESUS MARY JOSEPH, GOD IS MY HOPE".

Regards!

25th January 2007, 03:49 PM	#2
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Blades and horseshoes??! Any pounding and compacting of the iron shoe produced by the horse, would be compltely lost anyway, in the forging process. You hear the same thing, re. stub-iron twist gun barrels, (barrels made from horseshoe nail stubs)...........The pounding makes a purer product therefore a higher quality barrel. as above, lost in forging process,..... but a good source for nice pure iron!

25th January 2007, 04:39 PM	#5
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Blades and horseshoes??! Hi Fernando, I wasn't saying the use of horseshoes or nails was a myth, just that any wonderful properties added by the horse pounding the iron would be lost in the forging. William Fullard, the best barrel-maker in London in early 19th Century used horseshoe nail stubs almost exclsively. ( poor folks made a poor living by gathering them along the great london road!) I'm sure swordsmiths would compete for this source of pure (at that time) iron! Best wishes, Richard.

25th January 2007, 06:02 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Could it be that a sword forged with the inclusion of horse-shoes may be more talismatic than functional. Similar to the use of 'meteorite' iron in SEA swords / knives. The 'soft' iron used for horseshoes was a 'necessity' so that the shoes could 'wear in' to the natural 'gait' of the horse. The low carbon iron would provide a 'forgiving' spine or core to a sword or would be a useful 'addition' to a 'pattern welded' blade. But an entire blade forged from iron with little or no carbon would not produce a good cutting edge.....essential for a Sabre. Wolviex, please, what is the translation of the inscription IEZVS MARIA IOZEF? Here is a link about the beliefs of many cultures with regards to iron and horseshoes. http://www.sacred-texts.com/etc/mhs/mhs09.htm As the thread was about Polish Sabres, I found this about Polish coats of arms...these particularly have horseshoes within them.....it could suggest the importance of 'the horseshoe' ..... a reference to Polish history/mythology ? http://209.85.129.104/search?q=cache...&ct=clnk&cd=14 Last edited by katana; 25th January 2007 at 06:22 PM.

25th January 2007, 04:08 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Horse shoes for swords, certainly not a myth. One of the most famous resources for gun barrels in ( at least ) the 18th century, was the forging of horse shoes. Not that they forged while being used, but certainly in later treatment. The experts can expand about this.It is written in many works. fernando

25th January 2007, 04:21 PM	#4
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Michal, I have read somewhere that repeatedly working the iron will make it harder that is why horseshoes and nails where often used in many cultures. I will try to find the references tonight when i have time. I have no first hand knowledge about making knives/swords but I have observed that the second half of a horseshoe wears much slower than the first. Hope this helps. Jeff

25th January 2007, 06:38 PM	#7
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 421	Dear All! So it seems that statement made in book was just a general thought that leaves some doubts for the reader, but indeed we can agree horseshoes migh have been used in a process of making blade. But it still seems to me it is impossible to make entire blade only with horseshoes, not such good one as seen with hussars sabres anyway. So the thought of the author was just a bit to short to explain it properly IMO. And I see most of you left "natural forging" without comment... Katana: no there is no special talismanic, mythologic or historic connection with horseshoe in Poland except prejudice that hanged in house can bring a bit of luck, but it isn't such important for Polish minds to have any significance in art or craftmenship. And yes, you can see the sign of horseshoe on few Polish coat-of -arms, but only on few ones. There are also many other different symbols and objects used in very rich Polish heraldy, and all depends on family history or taste of noblemen, so the plot won't take us far that way - sorry. The full inscription on the blade is IEZVS MARIA IOZEF DEVS SPES MEA where "V" is made as "U" - it is easier to engrave or stamp, and "I" as "J". It means in English "JESUS MARY JOSEPH, GOD IS MY HOPE". Regards!