Help with talismanic inscriptions?

VVV · 24th January 2007, 06:20 PM

Thanks Ben,

Michael

Jens Nordlunde · 24th January 2007, 07:37 PM

Hi Michael,

You may, or you may not, have noticed that we have had some kind of the same discussion about Indian weapons.

The subject is very interesting, and I believe that the decoration of weapons means far more that the decorative side. The problem is, that I can’t prove it at the moment. There is a very strong symbolic force in this – and it is very ancient. Although the meaning may be forgotten, the same signs seem to be used. The signs can/will be different, and when designs half forgotten, different artists starts their own interpretation – but it is still there.

It may interest you, that Dr. Ann Feuerberg, who joined the excavations at Marv, is studying the symbolic value of the decorations on hilts and blades. She is one of the first scientists, whom to my knowledge, has take a serious interest in this subject.

Jens

Kan du ha' en god dag

VVV · 24th January 2007, 08:41 PM

Hej Jens,

I wasn't aware of the Indian weapons discussion.
Could you please PM me the link?
Very interesting about the research of Dr Feuerberg.
On Indonesian weapons some research has already been done, mostly on Mandau and Keris. But there is of course a lot left to be researched.

Michael

Jens Nordlunde · 24th January 2007, 09:38 PM

Hi, sorry i made a mistake about the name, it is Dr. Ann Feuerbach – sorry Ann.

Jens

Dajak · 25th January 2007, 08:45 PM

Michael do you have the Stone book ?

At the keris part is a story that tells how that the Dutch people could tell if an kris brings luck or brings bad luck

Ben

Battara · 27th January 2007, 07:40 PM

Sorry I've been away - 'puter problems.

I have been looking through research and can only take a guess at some of this. They could be moon symbols with some other meaning or a special plant motif.

That being said, I agree with Kai 100% (good job Kai).

Jim McDougall · 28th January 2007, 06:34 PM

This thread is fascinating!!! and although considerably outside my usual field or range of study, the topic is widely applied to virtually all forms of ethnographic weapons, as Jens has very aptly noted. As he suggests, material culture often survives and as we know is collected, with the motif and symbolic decoration losing the original meaning as the items leave thier original environment.
I think it is great to see the outstanding knowledge shared here working together to develop plausible and likely explanations concerning this example and the topic overall. It is exciting to learn more on this as it certainly is beneficial to incorporate the same perspective and theories in all aspects and theaters of ethnographic weapons study!

As an admittedly 'untrained' eye on Moro weapons, I would like to nonetheless suggest that to me the motif seems to overall follow the contour of the blade, and the outside or border motif does seem decorative in its linear and repetitive form. The figures within the border however do seem to reflect some symbolic possibility, with some possibility of anthromorphic forms as has been mentioned. It does seem to me that the semicircular motif in the 'border' may have, as suggested, nagan connotation.

I very much look forward to any response on these views, as well as the development of this discussion as I would like to learn more on the symbolism of these weapons. Its great to broaden horizons!!

Thanks very much guys!!

All the best,
Jim

24th January 2007, 06:20 PM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks Ben, Michael

24th January 2007, 07:37 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Michael, You may, or you may not, have noticed that we have had some kind of the same discussion about Indian weapons. The subject is very interesting, and I believe that the decoration of weapons means far more that the decorative side. The problem is, that I can’t prove it at the moment. There is a very strong symbolic force in this – and it is very ancient. Although the meaning may be forgotten, the same signs seem to be used. The signs can/will be different, and when designs half forgotten, different artists starts their own interpretation – but it is still there. It may interest you, that Dr. Ann Feuerberg, who joined the excavations at Marv, is studying the symbolic value of the decorations on hilts and blades. She is one of the first scientists, whom to my knowledge, has take a serious interest in this subject. Jens Kan du ha' en god dag

24th January 2007, 08:41 PM	#3
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Hej Jens, I wasn't aware of the Indian weapons discussion. Could you please PM me the link? Very interesting about the research of Dr Feuerberg. On Indonesian weapons some research has already been done, mostly on Mandau and Keris. But there is of course a lot left to be researched. Michael

24th January 2007, 09:38 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi, sorry i made a mistake about the name, it is Dr. Ann Feuerbach – sorry Ann. Jens

25th January 2007, 08:45 PM	#5
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Michael do you have the Stone book ? At the keris part is a story that tells how that the Dutch people could tell if an kris brings luck or brings bad luck Ben

27th January 2007, 07:40 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Sorry I've been away - 'puter problems. I have been looking through research and can only take a guess at some of this. They could be moon symbols with some other meaning or a special plant motif. That being said, I agree with Kai 100% (good job Kai).

28th January 2007, 06:34 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	This thread is fascinating!!! and although considerably outside my usual field or range of study, the topic is widely applied to virtually all forms of ethnographic weapons, as Jens has very aptly noted. As he suggests, material culture often survives and as we know is collected, with the motif and symbolic decoration losing the original meaning as the items leave thier original environment. I think it is great to see the outstanding knowledge shared here working together to develop plausible and likely explanations concerning this example and the topic overall. It is exciting to learn more on this as it certainly is beneficial to incorporate the same perspective and theories in all aspects and theaters of ethnographic weapons study! As an admittedly 'untrained' eye on Moro weapons, I would like to nonetheless suggest that to me the motif seems to overall follow the contour of the blade, and the outside or border motif does seem decorative in its linear and repetitive form. The figures within the border however do seem to reflect some symbolic possibility, with some possibility of anthromorphic forms as has been mentioned. It does seem to me that the semicircular motif in the 'border' may have, as suggested, nagan connotation. I very much look forward to any response on these views, as well as the development of this discussion as I would like to learn more on the symbolism of these weapons. Its great to broaden horizons!! Thanks very much guys!! All the best, Jim