Koummiya Moroccan

BerberDagger · 24th January 2007, 05:42 PM

thanks for welcome to forum...i m very happy to speack with member's forum.... I m a collector of german dagger of WWII and of Berber weapons.....but my specialy is napoleonic weapons (dagger,sword and pistols)

sorry for words but i speack little english....i speack more good french , german or italian

kai · 24th January 2007, 08:07 PM

Welcome to the forum!

Make sure to search both this as well as the old forum (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=6) for interesting threads! There are a few folks here with extensive knowledge on Koummyas - I'd like to hear more often of these nice bades though!

I assume you've already seen this article http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/koummya/index.html by our host Lee.

This seems to be a nice piece! Could you please measure the thickness of your blade with calipers? This helps to differentiate serious blades from more decorative/ceremonial ones. Recent tourist stuff is often more easily spotted by crappy blades (which actually don't deserve to be called blades); older tourist stuff can be anything in between AFAIK...

Do you have another example of this stamped mark? More often these seem to originate from stamped European blades which seem to have been prized by Moroccan makers.

Regards,
Kai

BerberDagger · 24th January 2007, 08:19 PM

hello
thanks for reply ,
the thickness mesures 4 mm , if i have understand you questions!!!!

yes this symbol is on a photo of raisuli , in his "t-shirt".....in a old photo that i have buy from england....

kai · 24th January 2007, 09:46 PM

Quote:

the thickness mesures 4 mm

That settles it - a genuine weapon IMHO.

Quote:

yes this symbol is on a photo of raisuli , in his "t-shirt".....in a old photo that i have buy from england....

Could you post a scan? Thanks!

Regards,
Kai

BerberDagger · 24th January 2007, 10:52 PM

symbols at better look is not = but similar.... FOR YOU....

Jim McDougall · 26th January 2007, 03:31 AM

Hi BerberDagger,
That is definitely an extremely attractive koummya, and quite different in the hilt than most I have seen. I just thought I would add a few notes on them that I have found interesting in earlier research and discussions

The koummya is a fascinating weapon, especially in its reflection of influences of other cultures that have come into regions of the Maghreb. It has been suggested that the arched pommel may be traced back to traders from Venice and the distinctive swords known as cinqueda, however this suggestion may be best considered apocryphal, but one can see the clear similarity to many of those pommels.

The scabbard design appears to derive of course from the Arabian janbiyya, with the recurved tip and the bulb at the end (as seen on most Omani examples).

Concerning this example, I am unclear whether this blade would be Spanish, however it would seem that cross marking is intended to allude to that influence. This type cross, in what appears stylized interpretation clearly resembles the 'crusaders cross' of medieval times, which became the Santiago cross in Spain. Although not distinctly known as a makers mark, it is known to have appeared on swords and armor in Switzerland (as early as 12th c.) and in Spain as well as in Germany. It seems that typically it has appeared on early Spanish swords
often in groupings of four (early Hispano-Moresque 'jineta').

I am not sure that there are distinct 'tribal' symbols among the many Berber tribes, as it seems most geometric and cosmological motif and decoration is applied somewhat generally in accordance to local folk religion and associated superstitious beliefs.

If anyone has studied the anthropology of the Berbers I would very much like to know if such tribal symbolism does exist.

I believe that the cross symbol has been added to this blade, as is so often the case in North African edged weapons, to imbue the weapon with the virtues of the much desired European blades.

The very attractive vertically fluted horn grips remind me of early French sabres of Napoleonic period that often had these ebony grips. I cannot I can recall seeing them on koumyya. Anyone out there have other examples ?

Best regards,
Jim

ErnestoJuan · 27th January 2007, 10:28 AM

Hi all,

This type of koummya is generally called "queue de paon", peacock's tail.
The fluted horn grips are common on these types of koummyas. I am in the middle of moving so therefore unfortunately I cannot make pictures and post them, I try to keep it in mind.

Jim, thanks again for your extensive post; it is indeed very hard to find material about koummya's and berber tribes.

Ernst

24th January 2007, 05:42 PM	#1
BerberDagger Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 247	thanks thanks for welcome to forum...i m very happy to speack with member's forum.... I m a collector of german dagger of WWII and of Berber weapons.....but my specialy is napoleonic weapons (dagger,sword and pistols) sorry for words but i speack little english....i speack more good french , german or italian

24th January 2007, 08:19 PM	#3
BerberDagger Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 247	hello hello thanks for reply , the thickness mesures 4 mm , if i have understand you questions!!!! yes this symbol is on a photo of raisuli , in his "t-shirt".....in a old photo that i have buy from england....

24th January 2007, 10:52 PM	#5
BerberDagger Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 247	symbols at better look is not = but similar.... FOR YOU.... Attached Images

24th January 2007, 08:07 PM	#2
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Welcome to the forum! Make sure to search both this as well as the old forum (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=6) for interesting threads! There are a few folks here with extensive knowledge on Koummyas - I'd like to hear more often of these nice bades though! I assume you've already seen this article http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/koummya/index.html by our host Lee. This seems to be a nice piece! Could you please measure the thickness of your blade with calipers? This helps to differentiate serious blades from more decorative/ceremonial ones. Recent tourist stuff is often more easily spotted by crappy blades (which actually don't deserve to be called blades); older tourist stuff can be anything in between AFAIK... Do you have another example of this stamped mark? More often these seem to originate from stamped European blades which seem to have been prized by Moroccan makers. Regards, Kai

26th January 2007, 03:31 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Hi BerberDagger, That is definitely an extremely attractive koummya, and quite different in the hilt than most I have seen. I just thought I would add a few notes on them that I have found interesting in earlier research and discussions The koummya is a fascinating weapon, especially in its reflection of influences of other cultures that have come into regions of the Maghreb. It has been suggested that the arched pommel may be traced back to traders from Venice and the distinctive swords known as cinqueda, however this suggestion may be best considered apocryphal, but one can see the clear similarity to many of those pommels. The scabbard design appears to derive of course from the Arabian janbiyya, with the recurved tip and the bulb at the end (as seen on most Omani examples). Concerning this example, I am unclear whether this blade would be Spanish, however it would seem that cross marking is intended to allude to that influence. This type cross, in what appears stylized interpretation clearly resembles the 'crusaders cross' of medieval times, which became the Santiago cross in Spain. Although not distinctly known as a makers mark, it is known to have appeared on swords and armor in Switzerland (as early as 12th c.) and in Spain as well as in Germany. It seems that typically it has appeared on early Spanish swords often in groupings of four (early Hispano-Moresque 'jineta'). I am not sure that there are distinct 'tribal' symbols among the many Berber tribes, as it seems most geometric and cosmological motif and decoration is applied somewhat generally in accordance to local folk religion and associated superstitious beliefs. If anyone has studied the anthropology of the Berbers I would very much like to know if such tribal symbolism does exist. I believe that the cross symbol has been added to this blade, as is so often the case in North African edged weapons, to imbue the weapon with the virtues of the much desired European blades. The very attractive vertically fluted horn grips remind me of early French sabres of Napoleonic period that often had these ebony grips. I cannot I can recall seeing them on koumyya. Anyone out there have other examples ? Best regards, Jim

27th January 2007, 10:28 AM	#7
ErnestoJuan Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Europa Posts: 60	Hi all, This type of koummya is generally called "queue de paon", peacock's tail. The fluted horn grips are common on these types of koummyas. I am in the middle of moving so therefore unfortunately I cannot make pictures and post them, I try to keep it in mind. Jim, thanks again for your extensive post; it is indeed very hard to find material about koummya's and berber tribes. Ernst