Indo-Persian ? SEA? Pole arm head?

katana · 22nd January 2007, 07:22 PM

Thanks Jens and Jim

,

interesting stuff..and very helpful (as usual)....

...Jim you mentioned the possibility that this could be ceremonial. I'm not so sure..... the blade is no longer 'symmetrical' because of repeated sharpening (more so on one side than the other) . Still reasonably sharp although there is no evidence of being 'honed' recently.
There is a hole in the socket where a 'rivet' or similar was possibly used to attach to the shaft.
The shaft, I presume would have been wood (teak ?) with a minimum diameter of approx. 30mm (1 1/5 ") but more likely was 41 mm (1 7/8") if 'level' with the 'bevelled' end of the socket. That would surely be a substantial 'heavyweight' shaft ?

The 'medial ridge' is 5/8" (15mm) 'thick' at the socket end which tapers (distally ?) to 3/16" (4.5 mm) just millimeters before the point.

Would these dimensions etc. still suggest ceremonial?

Has the 'inverted arrowhead motif' any significance ???

Ah ... one more thing....would 'elephant spear' mean a spear 'used' whilst on 'elephantback' or would it be used by a 'foot' soldier to 'take down' one of these magnificent animals.

Jim McDougall · 22nd January 2007, 08:10 PM

Hi Katana,
If that has been sharpened then you're right, it was probably 'live'. It seemed ceremonial only in the sense that the features had devolved essentially to less dramatic form. Terms expressed as 'elephant sword' 'gun' etc. are always confusing. I cannot imagine trying to kill an elephant with one of these, although the ribbed four blade shape seems much like 'armor piercing' weapons. I'm not sure on the significance of the winglike shape, and perspective on those features we can only speculate. There would probably be some pretty good suggestions found in "Hindu Arms and Ritual", as Jens has mentioned.

Good observation on the shaft size also, and that might support use for anti-elephant warfare. Maybe this was sort of a proto-bazooka?

In any case, I think your descriptions probably revise the ceremonial suggestion. I'd like to find out more on the use of these weapons associated with elephants, as well as the ancus, which is a most mysterious implement/weapon.

Best regards,
Jim

katana · 22nd January 2007, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I'd like to find out more on the use of these weapons associated with elephants, as well as the ancus, which is a most mysterious implement/weapon.

Best regards,
Jim

You and me ...both.

I'll see what I can 'dig up' and post it here

The use of Elephants in ancient warfare is trully facinating....many were trained to use trunk, tusks and feet (probably not an accurate 'scientific' term...but you get the picture

)to attack, maim and crush any 'foot' soldiers in their path

Many had forms of armour and sometimes the tusks were removed and sword-like blades fitted in their place...

. I would imagine, a 'foot' soldier armed with a hefty spear / pole arm would have little chance against a charging 'war' elephant....perhaps they had a tactic..whereby the elephant could be sucessfully attacked ...with less risk

nKante · 23rd January 2007, 01:48 AM

Yes, I have seen examples of blades that were fixed to the elephants tusk. At first glance that is what I thought this was. But the example I saw had a socket that was bigger than the blade. And it swept up, as a natural tusk would. I can only imagine the electricity in the air during an elephant charge. I don't care how big your spear is, it takes a set of brass ones to fight one of those things. One of Hannibals last battles that I read about used trumpets at the last second to confuse and scare the elephants. The front line of foot soldiers were staggered. As the elephants passed in between they were harassed by light armored missle troops (mostly javalins). This tactic worked, but was aided by the fact that the elephants were newly trained. Only a handful, I think 16, of Hannibals elephants returned from the European invassion.

Jim McDougall · 23rd January 2007, 05:35 AM

You're right Katana, this topic of elephant warfare has got my curiosity up!

so I've been hittin' the books too. Nice illustrations you posted BTW!
Interesting stuff nKante, and I've heard of elephant swords also, so wanted to see what I could find, as well as how likely was defense against these huge animals.

In 1526, Babur noted, "...the great beasts were very difficult to kill, though they could more easily be driven off", ("Mughal India 1504-1761" D.Nicolle,p.15).

However, in describing battle c.1116 between Seljuqs and Ghaznavids, it is noted that "...the Seljuq troops were able to stampede the elephants into retreat by attacking the leading beast in the only part not completely covered with armour, the vulnerable under belly".
from " The Elephant Armour" by Thom Richardson & Donna Stevens ("Royal Armouries Yearbook" Vol.I 1996, p.101.

Regarding the weaponry attached to the elephant itself, descriptions of them at the Battle of Panipat (1556) says that the trunks were armed with 'spears and knives' (Richardson, op.cit.p.102). Also in the same reference, it is noted
Timur describing the elephants of the Delhi Sultans in 1398, says that sharp poisoned points were fastened firmly to their tusks, and that the Bahmani armies c.1468 attached large scythes to the trunks and tusks of their elephants. In 1535, the Vijayanagar armies fastened knives on their tusks, "...with which they do much harm".

In "By my Sword and Shield" (E.Jaiwent Paul, New Delhi, 1995, p.106) the author describes the tusks of the elephants were "...tipped with sharp metal points".

Richardson (p.103) claims that a pair of the tusk swords still survive at Powis Castle in England, and "...tusk swords are otherwise very rare, the only other examples known to us are two rather small and probably late pairs from the now dispersed Mysore arsenal of Maharaja Krishnaraja Wadiyar III (1794-1868); one of these pairs was offered for sale in London (Sothebys 1991, Lot 553)".
Wonder what these went for?!!

Anybody got that catalog?

To tell the truth, I dont think those elephants really needed swords!

just as you say nKante. But I always thought it was interesting to know if they really existed. These were all the references I could find so far.

As you have noted Katana, the elephants were trained to crush, throw unfortunate victims with their trunks etc. Apparantly they were also key rally points, easy to see! They served sort of as vantage points of sorts for the maharajah, unfortunately up there he became a pretty good target for the archers.

With all this talk about elephants, I cant help thinking of the 'pet' of Victor MacLaughlin in "Gunga Din" !! when it tried to follow them on the suspension bridge! 'bit of a problem there!!'

.

All best regards,
Jim

Joe · 23rd January 2007, 06:10 AM

Pair of elephant tusk blades.

Unfortunately, I've long since lost the source for these two.

Sorry.

B.I · 23rd January 2007, 09:52 AM

Hi Joe,
The tusk blades you show are the ones mentioned by Jim, and were part of Clives estate in Powis. They are now with the elephant armour at Leeds Armouries, although they are too big to stick on the end of the mounted elephant tusks (without skewering the occasional passing schoolchild)
Jim,
I have the Sothebys catalogue, and the pair from Mysore (also illustrated in the Mysore armoury catalogue) are quite disappointing. The Powis pair are huge, and very heavy, leaving no doubt they were made for use and not ceremonial.
On the spearhenad, I go along with Jens and Jims summary. It has the asthetics of South India, but could easily (even more liikely) be from Sri Lanka.

23rd January 2007, 05:35 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	You're right Katana, this topic of elephant warfare has got my curiosity up! so I've been hittin' the books too. Nice illustrations you posted BTW! Interesting stuff nKante, and I've heard of elephant swords also, so wanted to see what I could find, as well as how likely was defense against these huge animals. In 1526, Babur noted, "...the great beasts were very difficult to kill, though they could more easily be driven off", ("Mughal India 1504-1761" D.Nicolle,p.15). However, in describing battle c.1116 between Seljuqs and Ghaznavids, it is noted that "...the Seljuq troops were able to stampede the elephants into retreat by attacking the leading beast in the only part not completely covered with armour, the vulnerable under belly". from " The Elephant Armour" by Thom Richardson & Donna Stevens ("Royal Armouries Yearbook" Vol.I 1996, p.101. Regarding the weaponry attached to the elephant itself, descriptions of them at the Battle of Panipat (1556) says that the trunks were armed with 'spears and knives' (Richardson, op.cit.p.102). Also in the same reference, it is noted Timur describing the elephants of the Delhi Sultans in 1398, says that sharp poisoned points were fastened firmly to their tusks, and that the Bahmani armies c.1468 attached large scythes to the trunks and tusks of their elephants. In 1535, the Vijayanagar armies fastened knives on their tusks, "...with which they do much harm". In "By my Sword and Shield" (E.Jaiwent Paul, New Delhi, 1995, p.106) the author describes the tusks of the elephants were "...tipped with sharp metal points". Richardson (p.103) claims that a pair of the tusk swords still survive at Powis Castle in England, and "...tusk swords are otherwise very rare, the only other examples known to us are two rather small and probably late pairs from the now dispersed Mysore arsenal of Maharaja Krishnaraja Wadiyar III (1794-1868); one of these pairs was offered for sale in London (Sothebys 1991, Lot 553)". Wonder what these went for?!! Anybody got that catalog? To tell the truth, I dont think those elephants really needed swords! just as you say nKante. But I always thought it was interesting to know if they really existed. These were all the references I could find so far. As you have noted Katana, the elephants were trained to crush, throw unfortunate victims with their trunks etc. Apparantly they were also key rally points, easy to see! They served sort of as vantage points of sorts for the maharajah, unfortunately up there he became a pretty good target for the archers. With all this talk about elephants, I cant help thinking of the 'pet' of Victor MacLaughlin in "Gunga Din" !! when it tried to follow them on the suspension bridge! 'bit of a problem there!!'. All best regards, Jim

23rd January 2007, 06:10 AM	#6
Joe Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: McDonough, GA Posts: 48	Pair of elephant tusk blades. Unfortunately, I've long since lost the source for these two. Sorry. Attached Images

22nd January 2007, 07:22 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Thanks Jens and Jim , interesting stuff..and very helpful (as usual).... ...Jim you mentioned the possibility that this could be ceremonial. I'm not so sure..... the blade is no longer 'symmetrical' because of repeated sharpening (more so on one side than the other) . Still reasonably sharp although there is no evidence of being 'honed' recently. There is a hole in the socket where a 'rivet' or similar was possibly used to attach to the shaft. The shaft, I presume would have been wood (teak ?) with a minimum diameter of approx. 30mm (1 1/5 ") but more likely was 41 mm (1 7/8") if 'level' with the 'bevelled' end of the socket. That would surely be a substantial 'heavyweight' shaft ? The 'medial ridge' is 5/8" (15mm) 'thick' at the socket end which tapers (distally ?) to 3/16" (4.5 mm) just millimeters before the point. Would these dimensions etc. still suggest ceremonial? Has the 'inverted arrowhead motif' any significance ??? Ah ... one more thing....would 'elephant spear' mean a spear 'used' whilst on 'elephantback' or would it be used by a 'foot' soldier to 'take down' one of these magnificent animals.

22nd January 2007, 08:10 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Hi Katana, If that has been sharpened then you're right, it was probably 'live'. It seemed ceremonial only in the sense that the features had devolved essentially to less dramatic form. Terms expressed as 'elephant sword' 'gun' etc. are always confusing. I cannot imagine trying to kill an elephant with one of these, although the ribbed four blade shape seems much like 'armor piercing' weapons. I'm not sure on the significance of the winglike shape, and perspective on those features we can only speculate. There would probably be some pretty good suggestions found in "Hindu Arms and Ritual", as Jens has mentioned. Good observation on the shaft size also, and that might support use for anti-elephant warfare. Maybe this was sort of a proto-bazooka? In any case, I think your descriptions probably revise the ceremonial suggestion. I'd like to find out more on the use of these weapons associated with elephants, as well as the ancus, which is a most mysterious implement/weapon. Best regards, Jim

23rd January 2007, 01:48 AM	#4
nKante Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Philly Posts: 72	Yes, I have seen examples of blades that were fixed to the elephants tusk. At first glance that is what I thought this was. But the example I saw had a socket that was bigger than the blade. And it swept up, as a natural tusk would. I can only imagine the electricity in the air during an elephant charge. I don't care how big your spear is, it takes a set of brass ones to fight one of those things. One of Hannibals last battles that I read about used trumpets at the last second to confuse and scare the elephants. The front line of foot soldiers were staggered. As the elephants passed in between they were harassed by light armored missle troops (mostly javalins). This tactic worked, but was aided by the fact that the elephants were newly trained. Only a handful, I think 16, of Hannibals elephants returned from the European invassion.

23rd January 2007, 09:52 AM	#7
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	Hi Joe, The tusk blades you show are the ones mentioned by Jim, and were part of Clives estate in Powis. They are now with the elephant armour at Leeds Armouries, although they are too big to stick on the end of the mounted elephant tusks (without skewering the occasional passing schoolchild) Jim, I have the Sothebys catalogue, and the pair from Mysore (also illustrated in the Mysore armoury catalogue) are quite disappointing. The Powis pair are huge, and very heavy, leaving no doubt they were made for use and not ceremonial. On the spearhenad, I go along with Jens and Jims summary. It has the asthetics of South India, but could easily (even more liikely) be from Sri Lanka.