Grandpa's Keris

Daniel · 19th January 2007, 08:12 PM

Thanks again for all the information. It certainly sounds like something I could do.

DD

A. G. Maisey · 19th January 2007, 10:02 PM

Stylistically this keris is Bali, there is no doubt of that, but as Rick points out the pamor does not really look much like the pamor we associate with Bali.The workmanship is a little on the rough side for Bali,but we should remember that not everybody could afford the work of a top maker. I suspect that the gonjo might be a replacement---not because of the different material, that is not unusual, but because of the variation in the greneng and the lack of flow under the sirah cecak.I believe it would pre-date WWII, because to the best of my knowledge no keris were made in Bali from at least the time of the Japanese occupation, perhaps earlier, until recent times.

On the subject of staining and arsenic.
I am 66 years old. I stained my first keris blade when I was in my teens. I lost count a long time ago of how many I have stained. I have used laboratory quality white arsenic for all except a couple of the blades I have stained in Australia, and for the few that I have done while I've been in Jawa I have used warangan. Generally speaking, I have nearly always got faster results with warangan, however, probably the blades that I regard as the best stains I have ever achieved have been done with lab. quality arsenic trioxide.

Arsenic is extremely poisonous. There is no doubt of that. However, used with normal caution there is no need to be afraid of it. Not that many years ago electricity distributors and telephone authorities used wooden poles to carry their lines. These wooden poles were treated with arsenic before they were put in the ground. The men who did this work worked at it as their normal employment. Periodically they were medically examined to check for unacceptable levels of arsenic in their bodies. Very, very rarely was one of these people ever identified with excess arsenic levels.

On the subject of blade cleaning.
If fruit acids are used, either brushed on, or as a soak, no damage will be done to even a fragile old blade.
If bi-carbonate of soda is mixed with a fruit acid, it will reduce the acidic qualities of the fruit acid, and the cleaning process will be slower, in fact, it could even be non-existant.
Bi-carbonate of soda is useful, when painted on as a slurry after etching damascus to halt the further action of the etchant.

It is best that the staining process continues on immediatly after the cleaning process. Delays between cleaning and staining can allow rust to reform in humid conditions.

There are a number of ways in which to stain a keris blade. I've even used sulphur and rice water to achieve a stain, however, some ways are easier than others, and some ways will give more definite results than others.

David · 20th January 2007, 12:13 AM

Thanks Alan. You and Rick have better eyes than i do for the possible pamor pattern on this keris. Maybe that "gut feeling" of yours is working well. Your theory that the gonjo might be a replacement was something i hadn't thought about and might explain why it fits differently than most 20thC Bali keris. Still i wonder why a keris that is only 70-80 yrs. old would be in need of a replacement gonjo.
I completely agree with your advice on staining Alan (probably because i have followed your instruction from the start

) . I have used arsenic trioxide with great success over the past few years. I have never tried realgar. Actually i would think one might want to take extra precautions using the mineral form since grinding the stone to powder is much more likely to make the arsenic airborne and it would be easier to inhale the stuff. I definetely think the industrial arsenic trioxide is the way to go if you can get it. As with any poisonous chemical, use common sense and there is nothing to fear.

A. G. Maisey · 20th January 2007, 12:37 AM

Maybe the original gonjo was damaged, or lost, or maybe,maybe, maybe. Once you start guessing, anything is possible.All I know is that the gonjo on this keris shows a couple of things that do not agree with the workmanship in the body of the blade.

Let me make this very, very clear:- I am most definitely not recommending the procedure which follows:-

Empu Suparman would grind his warangan with the same mortar and pestle that his wife used to grind spices; sometimes he would make the concession of covering either mortar or pestle with a folded plastic bag, sometimes not.He passed away in 1995 of emphysema. His wife passed away last year of old age---probably a heart attack or stroke.

David · 20th January 2007, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Empu Suparman would grind his warangan with the same mortar and pestle that his wife used to grind spices; sometimes he would make the concession of covering either mortar or pestle with a folded plastic bag, sometimes not.He passed away in 1995 of emphysema. His wife passed away last year of old age---probably a heart attack or stroke.

Henk · 20th January 2007, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I have used laboratory quality white arsenic for all except a couple of the blades I have stained in Australia, and for the few that I have done while I've been in Jawa I have used warangan. Generally speaking, I have nearly always got faster results with warangan, however, probably the blades that I regard as the best stains I have ever achieved have been done with lab. quality arsenic trioxide.

Allan,
Do you use fruit acid in combinition with white arsenic? And how much arsenic do you use on how much fruit acid? I've heard one gram arsenic on 3/4 litre lemon- or limejuice, to a teaspoon or even a large spoon on a litre lemonjuice.

Maybe it is interesting to describe the process of staining, like you do it. That question is so many times asked here on the forum. What do you use for the staining and how have you to do it for a good result?

Let the master speak.........

A. G. Maisey · 20th January 2007, 08:53 PM

Henk, let's settle one thing first:-

I am not a master.

I might know a little bit about keris, and some of the things connected to keris.

In the field of keris I do not believe anybody can lay claim to being a "master".

Those of us who have devoted considerable time to the study of keris seem to have gathered information about different aspects of the keris, from different quarters. None of us have it all : we all have a little bit.

To clean a blade I have found tinned pineapple juice to be the best agent by far. I've tried a few different things, but only with pineapple juice can I leave a frail old blade in the juice for 2 or 3 weeks, and know that it will do absolutely no damage to the metal.

In my experience the only satisfactory fruit juice to use with the arsenic for staining is Tahitian lime juice. The full process that I use is available through the link that David provided. Scroll down until you come to a post by Wong Desa.

I probably should add this:- the method I have given is only one of many, but it is the one that I think will give an inexperienced person the most reliable result. There is one method that will give a far better result than any other method, however I am not prepared to publish this method because it is potentially very dangerous, and in the absence of hands on personal instruction there is a very high probability of misunderstanding on how it is done.

Henk · 21st January 2007, 08:51 AM

Allan,

Don't take the phrase "Let the master speak" too serious. Here in Holland, and that's the difference between languages and the use of it, that we discussed before, it means: Let the one who has more knowledge about the subject tell us about it.
After all we are all students on this forum, but no one can deny that you have a great knowledge that we all enjoy. And there are certainly more members with great knowledge.
I do agree with you that the study of keris is a study for lifetime and even then how many information one has gathered, one still don't know everything.
I thought the expression was original chinese: "Who knows so much, find out that he knows so little."
I suppose we have settled this now.

I don't have the intention at the moment to stain keris blades. The arsenic stuff is too dangerous for me and as said, a job for the experts , a knowlede I like to use with great gratitude. Besides that I didn't even mention buying the stuff here in Holland. But it is a very intriging subject, that is an indissolubly part of the keris.

A. G. Maisey · 21st January 2007, 08:49 PM

I actually thought your "master" remark might have been light-hearted fun, but although it would come across OK in conversation, in print, and across many cultures, if I accepted your remark without denying it, I could be seen as the one of the greatest egotists who ever sucked air.

It is probably true of many fields of knowledge, and it is certainly true of the keris, that the more you learn, the more you realise how little you know.

Arsenic used to stain keris dangerous?

Yep. About as dangerous as a .44 magnum.

But neither will do you any harm at all if handled as they should be.

19th January 2007, 08:12 PM	#1
Daniel Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: California Posts: 16	Thanks again for all the information. It certainly sounds like something I could do. DD

19th January 2007, 10:02 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Stylistically this keris is Bali, there is no doubt of that, but as Rick points out the pamor does not really look much like the pamor we associate with Bali.The workmanship is a little on the rough side for Bali,but we should remember that not everybody could afford the work of a top maker. I suspect that the gonjo might be a replacement---not because of the different material, that is not unusual, but because of the variation in the greneng and the lack of flow under the sirah cecak.I believe it would pre-date WWII, because to the best of my knowledge no keris were made in Bali from at least the time of the Japanese occupation, perhaps earlier, until recent times. On the subject of staining and arsenic. I am 66 years old. I stained my first keris blade when I was in my teens. I lost count a long time ago of how many I have stained. I have used laboratory quality white arsenic for all except a couple of the blades I have stained in Australia, and for the few that I have done while I've been in Jawa I have used warangan. Generally speaking, I have nearly always got faster results with warangan, however, probably the blades that I regard as the best stains I have ever achieved have been done with lab. quality arsenic trioxide. Arsenic is extremely poisonous. There is no doubt of that. However, used with normal caution there is no need to be afraid of it. Not that many years ago electricity distributors and telephone authorities used wooden poles to carry their lines. These wooden poles were treated with arsenic before they were put in the ground. The men who did this work worked at it as their normal employment. Periodically they were medically examined to check for unacceptable levels of arsenic in their bodies. Very, very rarely was one of these people ever identified with excess arsenic levels. On the subject of blade cleaning. If fruit acids are used, either brushed on, or as a soak, no damage will be done to even a fragile old blade. If bi-carbonate of soda is mixed with a fruit acid, it will reduce the acidic qualities of the fruit acid, and the cleaning process will be slower, in fact, it could even be non-existant. Bi-carbonate of soda is useful, when painted on as a slurry after etching damascus to halt the further action of the etchant. It is best that the staining process continues on immediatly after the cleaning process. Delays between cleaning and staining can allow rust to reform in humid conditions. There are a number of ways in which to stain a keris blade. I've even used sulphur and rice water to achieve a stain, however, some ways are easier than others, and some ways will give more definite results than others.

20th January 2007, 12:13 AM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Thanks Alan. You and Rick have better eyes than i do for the possible pamor pattern on this keris. Maybe that "gut feeling" of yours is working well. Your theory that the gonjo might be a replacement was something i hadn't thought about and might explain why it fits differently than most 20thC Bali keris. Still i wonder why a keris that is only 70-80 yrs. old would be in need of a replacement gonjo. I completely agree with your advice on staining Alan (probably because i have followed your instruction from the start ) . I have used arsenic trioxide with great success over the past few years. I have never tried realgar. Actually i would think one might want to take extra precautions using the mineral form since grinding the stone to powder is much more likely to make the arsenic airborne and it would be easier to inhale the stuff. I definetely think the industrial arsenic trioxide is the way to go if you can get it. As with any poisonous chemical, use common sense and there is nothing to fear.

20th January 2007, 12:37 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Maybe the original gonjo was damaged, or lost, or maybe,maybe, maybe. Once you start guessing, anything is possible.All I know is that the gonjo on this keris shows a couple of things that do not agree with the workmanship in the body of the blade. Let me make this very, very clear:- I am most definitely not recommending the procedure which follows:- Empu Suparman would grind his warangan with the same mortar and pestle that his wife used to grind spices; sometimes he would make the concession of covering either mortar or pestle with a folded plastic bag, sometimes not.He passed away in 1995 of emphysema. His wife passed away last year of old age---probably a heart attack or stroke.

20th January 2007, 08:53 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Henk, let's settle one thing first:- I am not a master. I might know a little bit about keris, and some of the things connected to keris. In the field of keris I do not believe anybody can lay claim to being a "master". Those of us who have devoted considerable time to the study of keris seem to have gathered information about different aspects of the keris, from different quarters. None of us have it all : we all have a little bit. To clean a blade I have found tinned pineapple juice to be the best agent by far. I've tried a few different things, but only with pineapple juice can I leave a frail old blade in the juice for 2 or 3 weeks, and know that it will do absolutely no damage to the metal. In my experience the only satisfactory fruit juice to use with the arsenic for staining is Tahitian lime juice. The full process that I use is available through the link that David provided. Scroll down until you come to a post by Wong Desa. I probably should add this:- the method I have given is only one of many, but it is the one that I think will give an inexperienced person the most reliable result. There is one method that will give a far better result than any other method, however I am not prepared to publish this method because it is potentially very dangerous, and in the absence of hands on personal instruction there is a very high probability of misunderstanding on how it is done.

21st January 2007, 08:51 AM	#8
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Allan, Don't take the phrase "Let the master speak" too serious. Here in Holland, and that's the difference between languages and the use of it, that we discussed before, it means: Let the one who has more knowledge about the subject tell us about it. After all we are all students on this forum, but no one can deny that you have a great knowledge that we all enjoy. And there are certainly more members with great knowledge. I do agree with you that the study of keris is a study for lifetime and even then how many information one has gathered, one still don't know everything. I thought the expression was original chinese: "Who knows so much, find out that he knows so little." I suppose we have settled this now. I don't have the intention at the moment to stain keris blades. The arsenic stuff is too dangerous for me and as said, a job for the experts , a knowlede I like to use with great gratitude. Besides that I didn't even mention buying the stuff here in Holland. But it is a very intriging subject, that is an indissolubly part of the keris.

21st January 2007, 08:49 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	I actually thought your "master" remark might have been light-hearted fun, but although it would come across OK in conversation, in print, and across many cultures, if I accepted your remark without denying it, I could be seen as the one of the greatest egotists who ever sucked air. It is probably true of many fields of knowledge, and it is certainly true of the keris, that the more you learn, the more you realise how little you know. Arsenic used to stain keris dangerous? Yep. About as dangerous as a .44 magnum. But neither will do you any harm at all if handled as they should be.