Grandpa's Keris

David · 18th January 2007, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Hmmm, I count only 5 waves .

I wonder if the entire suite might be mid-20th C.

Sorry, i type slowly.

Rick, what makes you suspect this blade isn't that old?

kai · 18th January 2007, 08:16 AM

To me the blade doesn't look like it has been forged just before being picked up. I believe the workmanship on the prabot details is average at most for Balinese standards - it's a nice blade though! (I yet have to come across a genuine keris Bali blade which I don't like...

)

My best guess would be first half of the 20th century (19th c. seems also possible). I'd be interested to hear wether this piece shows any details which would specifically indicate 19th c. or otherwise.

Anyway, congrats Daniel - that's a really nice start for a keris collection!

Regards,
Kai

David · 18th January 2007, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

My best guess would be first half of the 20th century (19th c. seems also possible). I'd be interested to hear wether this piece shows any details which would specifically indicate 19th c. or otherwise.

This is a good question Kai, and it is not something which has been written up very much AFAIK. My reasoning for dating this one a little bit earlier might be completely off-base. I have noticed that pretty much all of my Bali keris tend to rise up in a slight curve at the tail end of the gonjo towards the body of the blade. This angle often follows though into forming part of the greneng. This gonjo, however, goes straight across. I have one older Bali keris that does this (could be early - mid 19thC), but i haven't seen it this way on 20thC Bali keris. Could be i just haven't seen enough. Of course, this gonjo is meatier than the one on my older keris, which seems more the style as we move towards the 20thC. Frankly not enough serious work has been done on how to date these keris. Maybe Alan has some ideas.
Kai, i agree that this keris is standard for Bali quality. There is nothing particularly extrordinary about it. But as you say, i love any genuine Bali blade and this one is certainly nice enough to hold on to.

Daniel · 18th January 2007, 02:48 PM

Thank you all for taking the time to post your opinions on this piece. I feel I have a much clearer idea now of what I have.

My Grandfather wasn't a knowlegeable collector, and brought back from his travels a whole mulligan stew of items including spear, blow gun, shields, and a variety of swords and knives. (unfortunately most of which was lost when my Grandma had a yard sale to get rid of "junk") But he had money to spend. This keris may well have been bought as a souvenier. I don't know.

I've had quite a bit of experience with metal finishing and patination--I've done some gunsmithing, antique restoration, etc. And I'm a pretty finicky craftsman. I think I can probably do the cleaning and staining myself. I don't assume it is a highly technical skill such as repolishing a Japanese blade. I'll do some research about the procedure and see what I can come up with. If I am successful, I'll post the results.

Thanks again for all your help.

DD

David · 18th January 2007, 04:42 PM

You might find this thread helpful. The hardest part is findind the arsenic trioxide. Other substances will darken a keris blade, but only arsenic will give you the correct colors, and even though, only if done properly. I would recommend that to make you initial attempts on some cheap blades, but even if you work on this one the process is, for the most part, reversable, as long as you don't seriously over-etch and eat away at the blade. That's kinda hard to do with pineapple juice or other fruit acids though.

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000717.html

Rick · 18th January 2007, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Sorry, i type slowly.

Rick, what makes you suspect this blade isn't that old?

I guess it's a gut feeling; the garap seems a bit hurried and uneven; also the pamor (what I can see of it) looks like pamors found on 20thC examples.

Marcokeris · 19th January 2007, 04:01 PM

Hallo Daniel

1)To clean a rusty blade you can use lemon juice mixed together bi-carb of soda, dish-soap and a little water. Use a toothbrush. Wait for some minutes. After clean the blade with water and repeat until the blade is clean.

2)then you can use warangan. Pay attention: don't use any chimic arsenic ARE DANGEROUS!! You must do like indonesian people: you have to use realgar (natural arsenic stone).
White realgar stone is not good: is good only to kill big rats. Orange-pink china realgar is good.
If you don't have warangan (realgar) you can try to buy realgar in a mineral shop for collectors' stones in your cowntry but is better to have indonesian (china) realgar.

3) then mill warangan like dust (the stone is very powdered). The colour of dust will be rather white. Mixed warangan together some lemon juice (eastern lime or western lemon are the same). 3/4 litre lemon juice for one grams warangam.

4) Wait for a week. Then , during good season, put the blade inside solution and wait for some minutes (turn the blade). After put the blade to dry in the shadow.
PAY ATTENTION: is better you don't have any cuts in your fingers and don't smoke (you can touch the cigarette's filter with fingers wet by warangan)

5) Repeat this until the blade becames black (and nichel remains white or grey). After wash the blade with water and soup and after only with water. If the blade is too black you can use a little lemon juice ogether water
IS VERY IMPORTANT TO DECIDE THE RIGHT MOMENT TO STOP THE PROCESS: WHEN THE BLADE MEET WATER THE BLADE BECAMES MORE DARKER.

6) dry the blade and put oil (If you don't have oil: Ballistol oil is good)

7) good lack

Daniel · 19th January 2007, 08:12 PM

Thanks again for all the information. It certainly sounds like something I could do.

DD

A. G. Maisey · 19th January 2007, 10:02 PM

Stylistically this keris is Bali, there is no doubt of that, but as Rick points out the pamor does not really look much like the pamor we associate with Bali.The workmanship is a little on the rough side for Bali,but we should remember that not everybody could afford the work of a top maker. I suspect that the gonjo might be a replacement---not because of the different material, that is not unusual, but because of the variation in the greneng and the lack of flow under the sirah cecak.I believe it would pre-date WWII, because to the best of my knowledge no keris were made in Bali from at least the time of the Japanese occupation, perhaps earlier, until recent times.

On the subject of staining and arsenic.
I am 66 years old. I stained my first keris blade when I was in my teens. I lost count a long time ago of how many I have stained. I have used laboratory quality white arsenic for all except a couple of the blades I have stained in Australia, and for the few that I have done while I've been in Jawa I have used warangan. Generally speaking, I have nearly always got faster results with warangan, however, probably the blades that I regard as the best stains I have ever achieved have been done with lab. quality arsenic trioxide.

Arsenic is extremely poisonous. There is no doubt of that. However, used with normal caution there is no need to be afraid of it. Not that many years ago electricity distributors and telephone authorities used wooden poles to carry their lines. These wooden poles were treated with arsenic before they were put in the ground. The men who did this work worked at it as their normal employment. Periodically they were medically examined to check for unacceptable levels of arsenic in their bodies. Very, very rarely was one of these people ever identified with excess arsenic levels.

On the subject of blade cleaning.
If fruit acids are used, either brushed on, or as a soak, no damage will be done to even a fragile old blade.
If bi-carbonate of soda is mixed with a fruit acid, it will reduce the acidic qualities of the fruit acid, and the cleaning process will be slower, in fact, it could even be non-existant.
Bi-carbonate of soda is useful, when painted on as a slurry after etching damascus to halt the further action of the etchant.

It is best that the staining process continues on immediatly after the cleaning process. Delays between cleaning and staining can allow rust to reform in humid conditions.

There are a number of ways in which to stain a keris blade. I've even used sulphur and rice water to achieve a stain, however, some ways are easier than others, and some ways will give more definite results than others.

David · 20th January 2007, 12:13 AM

Thanks Alan. You and Rick have better eyes than i do for the possible pamor pattern on this keris. Maybe that "gut feeling" of yours is working well. Your theory that the gonjo might be a replacement was something i hadn't thought about and might explain why it fits differently than most 20thC Bali keris. Still i wonder why a keris that is only 70-80 yrs. old would be in need of a replacement gonjo.
I completely agree with your advice on staining Alan (probably because i have followed your instruction from the start

) . I have used arsenic trioxide with great success over the past few years. I have never tried realgar. Actually i would think one might want to take extra precautions using the mineral form since grinding the stone to powder is much more likely to make the arsenic airborne and it would be easier to inhale the stuff. I definetely think the industrial arsenic trioxide is the way to go if you can get it. As with any poisonous chemical, use common sense and there is nothing to fear.

A. G. Maisey · 20th January 2007, 12:37 AM

Maybe the original gonjo was damaged, or lost, or maybe,maybe, maybe. Once you start guessing, anything is possible.All I know is that the gonjo on this keris shows a couple of things that do not agree with the workmanship in the body of the blade.

Let me make this very, very clear:- I am most definitely not recommending the procedure which follows:-

Empu Suparman would grind his warangan with the same mortar and pestle that his wife used to grind spices; sometimes he would make the concession of covering either mortar or pestle with a folded plastic bag, sometimes not.He passed away in 1995 of emphysema. His wife passed away last year of old age---probably a heart attack or stroke.

Henk · 20th January 2007, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I have used laboratory quality white arsenic for all except a couple of the blades I have stained in Australia, and for the few that I have done while I've been in Jawa I have used warangan. Generally speaking, I have nearly always got faster results with warangan, however, probably the blades that I regard as the best stains I have ever achieved have been done with lab. quality arsenic trioxide.

Allan,
Do you use fruit acid in combinition with white arsenic? And how much arsenic do you use on how much fruit acid? I've heard one gram arsenic on 3/4 litre lemon- or limejuice, to a teaspoon or even a large spoon on a litre lemonjuice.

Maybe it is interesting to describe the process of staining, like you do it. That question is so many times asked here on the forum. What do you use for the staining and how have you to do it for a good result?

Let the master speak.........

A. G. Maisey · 20th January 2007, 08:53 PM

Henk, let's settle one thing first:-

I am not a master.

I might know a little bit about keris, and some of the things connected to keris.

In the field of keris I do not believe anybody can lay claim to being a "master".

Those of us who have devoted considerable time to the study of keris seem to have gathered information about different aspects of the keris, from different quarters. None of us have it all : we all have a little bit.

To clean a blade I have found tinned pineapple juice to be the best agent by far. I've tried a few different things, but only with pineapple juice can I leave a frail old blade in the juice for 2 or 3 weeks, and know that it will do absolutely no damage to the metal.

In my experience the only satisfactory fruit juice to use with the arsenic for staining is Tahitian lime juice. The full process that I use is available through the link that David provided. Scroll down until you come to a post by Wong Desa.

I probably should add this:- the method I have given is only one of many, but it is the one that I think will give an inexperienced person the most reliable result. There is one method that will give a far better result than any other method, however I am not prepared to publish this method because it is potentially very dangerous, and in the absence of hands on personal instruction there is a very high probability of misunderstanding on how it is done.

18th January 2007, 08:16 AM	#2
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	To me the blade doesn't look like it has been forged just before being picked up. I believe the workmanship on the prabot details is average at most for Balinese standards - it's a nice blade though! (I yet have to come across a genuine keris Bali blade which I don't like... ) My best guess would be first half of the 20th century (19th c. seems also possible). I'd be interested to hear wether this piece shows any details which would specifically indicate 19th c. or otherwise. Anyway, congrats Daniel - that's a really nice start for a keris collection! Regards, Kai

18th January 2007, 02:48 PM	#4
Daniel Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: California Posts: 16	Thank you all for taking the time to post your opinions on this piece. I feel I have a much clearer idea now of what I have. My Grandfather wasn't a knowlegeable collector, and brought back from his travels a whole mulligan stew of items including spear, blow gun, shields, and a variety of swords and knives. (unfortunately most of which was lost when my Grandma had a yard sale to get rid of "junk") But he had money to spend. This keris may well have been bought as a souvenier. I don't know. I've had quite a bit of experience with metal finishing and patination--I've done some gunsmithing, antique restoration, etc. And I'm a pretty finicky craftsman. I think I can probably do the cleaning and staining myself. I don't assume it is a highly technical skill such as repolishing a Japanese blade. I'll do some research about the procedure and see what I can come up with. If I am successful, I'll post the results. Thanks again for all your help. DD

18th January 2007, 04:42 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	You might find this thread helpful. The hardest part is findind the arsenic trioxide. Other substances will darken a keris blade, but only arsenic will give you the correct colors, and even though, only if done properly. I would recommend that to make you initial attempts on some cheap blades, but even if you work on this one the process is, for the most part, reversable, as long as you don't seriously over-etch and eat away at the blade. That's kinda hard to do with pineapple juice or other fruit acids though. http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000717.html

19th January 2007, 04:01 PM	#7
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Hallo Daniel 1)To clean a rusty blade you can use lemon juice mixed together bi-carb of soda, dish-soap and a little water. Use a toothbrush. Wait for some minutes. After clean the blade with water and repeat until the blade is clean. 2)then you can use warangan. Pay attention: don't use any chimic arsenic ARE DANGEROUS!! You must do like indonesian people: you have to use realgar (natural arsenic stone). White realgar stone is not good: is good only to kill big rats. Orange-pink china realgar is good. If you don't have warangan (realgar) you can try to buy realgar in a mineral shop for collectors' stones in your cowntry but is better to have indonesian (china) realgar. 3) then mill warangan like dust (the stone is very powdered). The colour of dust will be rather white. Mixed warangan together some lemon juice (eastern lime or western lemon are the same). 3/4 litre lemon juice for one grams warangam. 4) Wait for a week. Then , during good season, put the blade inside solution and wait for some minutes (turn the blade). After put the blade to dry in the shadow. PAY ATTENTION: is better you don't have any cuts in your fingers and don't smoke (you can touch the cigarette's filter with fingers wet by warangan) 5) Repeat this until the blade becames black (and nichel remains white or grey). After wash the blade with water and soup and after only with water. If the blade is too black you can use a little lemon juice ogether water IS VERY IMPORTANT TO DECIDE THE RIGHT MOMENT TO STOP THE PROCESS: WHEN THE BLADE MEET WATER THE BLADE BECAMES MORE DARKER. 6) dry the blade and put oil (If you don't have oil: Ballistol oil is good) 7) good lack

19th January 2007, 08:12 PM	#8
Daniel Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: California Posts: 16	Thanks again for all the information. It certainly sounds like something I could do. DD

19th January 2007, 10:02 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Stylistically this keris is Bali, there is no doubt of that, but as Rick points out the pamor does not really look much like the pamor we associate with Bali.The workmanship is a little on the rough side for Bali,but we should remember that not everybody could afford the work of a top maker. I suspect that the gonjo might be a replacement---not because of the different material, that is not unusual, but because of the variation in the greneng and the lack of flow under the sirah cecak.I believe it would pre-date WWII, because to the best of my knowledge no keris were made in Bali from at least the time of the Japanese occupation, perhaps earlier, until recent times. On the subject of staining and arsenic. I am 66 years old. I stained my first keris blade when I was in my teens. I lost count a long time ago of how many I have stained. I have used laboratory quality white arsenic for all except a couple of the blades I have stained in Australia, and for the few that I have done while I've been in Jawa I have used warangan. Generally speaking, I have nearly always got faster results with warangan, however, probably the blades that I regard as the best stains I have ever achieved have been done with lab. quality arsenic trioxide. Arsenic is extremely poisonous. There is no doubt of that. However, used with normal caution there is no need to be afraid of it. Not that many years ago electricity distributors and telephone authorities used wooden poles to carry their lines. These wooden poles were treated with arsenic before they were put in the ground. The men who did this work worked at it as their normal employment. Periodically they were medically examined to check for unacceptable levels of arsenic in their bodies. Very, very rarely was one of these people ever identified with excess arsenic levels. On the subject of blade cleaning. If fruit acids are used, either brushed on, or as a soak, no damage will be done to even a fragile old blade. If bi-carbonate of soda is mixed with a fruit acid, it will reduce the acidic qualities of the fruit acid, and the cleaning process will be slower, in fact, it could even be non-existant. Bi-carbonate of soda is useful, when painted on as a slurry after etching damascus to halt the further action of the etchant. It is best that the staining process continues on immediatly after the cleaning process. Delays between cleaning and staining can allow rust to reform in humid conditions. There are a number of ways in which to stain a keris blade. I've even used sulphur and rice water to achieve a stain, however, some ways are easier than others, and some ways will give more definite results than others.

20th January 2007, 12:13 AM	#10
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Thanks Alan. You and Rick have better eyes than i do for the possible pamor pattern on this keris. Maybe that "gut feeling" of yours is working well. Your theory that the gonjo might be a replacement was something i hadn't thought about and might explain why it fits differently than most 20thC Bali keris. Still i wonder why a keris that is only 70-80 yrs. old would be in need of a replacement gonjo. I completely agree with your advice on staining Alan (probably because i have followed your instruction from the start ) . I have used arsenic trioxide with great success over the past few years. I have never tried realgar. Actually i would think one might want to take extra precautions using the mineral form since grinding the stone to powder is much more likely to make the arsenic airborne and it would be easier to inhale the stuff. I definetely think the industrial arsenic trioxide is the way to go if you can get it. As with any poisonous chemical, use common sense and there is nothing to fear.

20th January 2007, 12:37 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Maybe the original gonjo was damaged, or lost, or maybe,maybe, maybe. Once you start guessing, anything is possible.All I know is that the gonjo on this keris shows a couple of things that do not agree with the workmanship in the body of the blade. Let me make this very, very clear:- I am most definitely not recommending the procedure which follows:- Empu Suparman would grind his warangan with the same mortar and pestle that his wife used to grind spices; sometimes he would make the concession of covering either mortar or pestle with a folded plastic bag, sometimes not.He passed away in 1995 of emphysema. His wife passed away last year of old age---probably a heart attack or stroke.

20th January 2007, 08:53 PM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Henk, let's settle one thing first:- I am not a master. I might know a little bit about keris, and some of the things connected to keris. In the field of keris I do not believe anybody can lay claim to being a "master". Those of us who have devoted considerable time to the study of keris seem to have gathered information about different aspects of the keris, from different quarters. None of us have it all : we all have a little bit. To clean a blade I have found tinned pineapple juice to be the best agent by far. I've tried a few different things, but only with pineapple juice can I leave a frail old blade in the juice for 2 or 3 weeks, and know that it will do absolutely no damage to the metal. In my experience the only satisfactory fruit juice to use with the arsenic for staining is Tahitian lime juice. The full process that I use is available through the link that David provided. Scroll down until you come to a post by Wong Desa. I probably should add this:- the method I have given is only one of many, but it is the one that I think will give an inexperienced person the most reliable result. There is one method that will give a far better result than any other method, however I am not prepared to publish this method because it is potentially very dangerous, and in the absence of hands on personal instruction there is a very high probability of misunderstanding on how it is done.