Grandpa's Keris

Emanuel · 18th January 2007, 03:31 AM

Hello Daniel, welcome to the forum.
This does look like a Bali keris, I can't really tell the dapur (shape)besides that it has 7 luk and a nice prabot (chiselled details) which looks very nice and well done. I've been wanting to get one for a long time, I think they're magnificent.
It would be nice to get a high-contrast pamor out of this keris, but the cleaning is quite an involved process, and unless you're ready to dabble with chemistry and use some arsenic-based warangan solution, it'd be nice to find someone who can do it for you. I've tried contacting some chemistry professors at my university for assistance, but no luck yet.
The hilt figure is a Raksasa demon I believe, and it sort of looks like many of the new ones on ebay. The scabbard also looks much too busily decorated to me, but that's just an opinion based on very little contact with keris.
You'll get lots of much better info soon from those who know

Regards,
Emanuel

Rick · 18th January 2007, 03:42 AM

Hmmm, I count only 5 waves .

I wonder if the entire suite might be mid-20th C.

David · 18th January 2007, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Hmmm, I count only 5 waves .

I wonder if the entire suite might be mid-20th C.

Sorry, i type slowly.

Rick, what makes you suspect this blade isn't that old?

kai · 18th January 2007, 08:16 AM

To me the blade doesn't look like it has been forged just before being picked up. I believe the workmanship on the prabot details is average at most for Balinese standards - it's a nice blade though! (I yet have to come across a genuine keris Bali blade which I don't like...

)

My best guess would be first half of the 20th century (19th c. seems also possible). I'd be interested to hear wether this piece shows any details which would specifically indicate 19th c. or otherwise.

Anyway, congrats Daniel - that's a really nice start for a keris collection!

Regards,
Kai

David · 18th January 2007, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

My best guess would be first half of the 20th century (19th c. seems also possible). I'd be interested to hear wether this piece shows any details which would specifically indicate 19th c. or otherwise.

This is a good question Kai, and it is not something which has been written up very much AFAIK. My reasoning for dating this one a little bit earlier might be completely off-base. I have noticed that pretty much all of my Bali keris tend to rise up in a slight curve at the tail end of the gonjo towards the body of the blade. This angle often follows though into forming part of the greneng. This gonjo, however, goes straight across. I have one older Bali keris that does this (could be early - mid 19thC), but i haven't seen it this way on 20thC Bali keris. Could be i just haven't seen enough. Of course, this gonjo is meatier than the one on my older keris, which seems more the style as we move towards the 20thC. Frankly not enough serious work has been done on how to date these keris. Maybe Alan has some ideas.
Kai, i agree that this keris is standard for Bali quality. There is nothing particularly extrordinary about it. But as you say, i love any genuine Bali blade and this one is certainly nice enough to hold on to.

Daniel · 18th January 2007, 02:48 PM

Thank you all for taking the time to post your opinions on this piece. I feel I have a much clearer idea now of what I have.

My Grandfather wasn't a knowlegeable collector, and brought back from his travels a whole mulligan stew of items including spear, blow gun, shields, and a variety of swords and knives. (unfortunately most of which was lost when my Grandma had a yard sale to get rid of "junk") But he had money to spend. This keris may well have been bought as a souvenier. I don't know.

I've had quite a bit of experience with metal finishing and patination--I've done some gunsmithing, antique restoration, etc. And I'm a pretty finicky craftsman. I think I can probably do the cleaning and staining myself. I don't assume it is a highly technical skill such as repolishing a Japanese blade. I'll do some research about the procedure and see what I can come up with. If I am successful, I'll post the results.

Thanks again for all your help.

DD

David · 18th January 2007, 04:42 PM

You might find this thread helpful. The hardest part is findind the arsenic trioxide. Other substances will darken a keris blade, but only arsenic will give you the correct colors, and even though, only if done properly. I would recommend that to make you initial attempts on some cheap blades, but even if you work on this one the process is, for the most part, reversable, as long as you don't seriously over-etch and eat away at the blade. That's kinda hard to do with pineapple juice or other fruit acids though.

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000717.html

Rick · 18th January 2007, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Sorry, i type slowly.

Rick, what makes you suspect this blade isn't that old?

I guess it's a gut feeling; the garap seems a bit hurried and uneven; also the pamor (what I can see of it) looks like pamors found on 20thC examples.

Marcokeris · 19th January 2007, 04:01 PM

Hallo Daniel

1)To clean a rusty blade you can use lemon juice mixed together bi-carb of soda, dish-soap and a little water. Use a toothbrush. Wait for some minutes. After clean the blade with water and repeat until the blade is clean.

2)then you can use warangan. Pay attention: don't use any chimic arsenic ARE DANGEROUS!! You must do like indonesian people: you have to use realgar (natural arsenic stone).
White realgar stone is not good: is good only to kill big rats. Orange-pink china realgar is good.
If you don't have warangan (realgar) you can try to buy realgar in a mineral shop for collectors' stones in your cowntry but is better to have indonesian (china) realgar.

3) then mill warangan like dust (the stone is very powdered). The colour of dust will be rather white. Mixed warangan together some lemon juice (eastern lime or western lemon are the same). 3/4 litre lemon juice for one grams warangam.

4) Wait for a week. Then , during good season, put the blade inside solution and wait for some minutes (turn the blade). After put the blade to dry in the shadow.
PAY ATTENTION: is better you don't have any cuts in your fingers and don't smoke (you can touch the cigarette's filter with fingers wet by warangan)

5) Repeat this until the blade becames black (and nichel remains white or grey). After wash the blade with water and soup and after only with water. If the blade is too black you can use a little lemon juice ogether water
IS VERY IMPORTANT TO DECIDE THE RIGHT MOMENT TO STOP THE PROCESS: WHEN THE BLADE MEET WATER THE BLADE BECAMES MORE DARKER.

6) dry the blade and put oil (If you don't have oil: Ballistol oil is good)

7) good lack

Daniel · 19th January 2007, 08:12 PM

Thanks again for all the information. It certainly sounds like something I could do.

DD

A. G. Maisey · 19th January 2007, 10:02 PM

Stylistically this keris is Bali, there is no doubt of that, but as Rick points out the pamor does not really look much like the pamor we associate with Bali.The workmanship is a little on the rough side for Bali,but we should remember that not everybody could afford the work of a top maker. I suspect that the gonjo might be a replacement---not because of the different material, that is not unusual, but because of the variation in the greneng and the lack of flow under the sirah cecak.I believe it would pre-date WWII, because to the best of my knowledge no keris were made in Bali from at least the time of the Japanese occupation, perhaps earlier, until recent times.

On the subject of staining and arsenic.
I am 66 years old. I stained my first keris blade when I was in my teens. I lost count a long time ago of how many I have stained. I have used laboratory quality white arsenic for all except a couple of the blades I have stained in Australia, and for the few that I have done while I've been in Jawa I have used warangan. Generally speaking, I have nearly always got faster results with warangan, however, probably the blades that I regard as the best stains I have ever achieved have been done with lab. quality arsenic trioxide.

Arsenic is extremely poisonous. There is no doubt of that. However, used with normal caution there is no need to be afraid of it. Not that many years ago electricity distributors and telephone authorities used wooden poles to carry their lines. These wooden poles were treated with arsenic before they were put in the ground. The men who did this work worked at it as their normal employment. Periodically they were medically examined to check for unacceptable levels of arsenic in their bodies. Very, very rarely was one of these people ever identified with excess arsenic levels.

On the subject of blade cleaning.
If fruit acids are used, either brushed on, or as a soak, no damage will be done to even a fragile old blade.
If bi-carbonate of soda is mixed with a fruit acid, it will reduce the acidic qualities of the fruit acid, and the cleaning process will be slower, in fact, it could even be non-existant.
Bi-carbonate of soda is useful, when painted on as a slurry after etching damascus to halt the further action of the etchant.

It is best that the staining process continues on immediatly after the cleaning process. Delays between cleaning and staining can allow rust to reform in humid conditions.

There are a number of ways in which to stain a keris blade. I've even used sulphur and rice water to achieve a stain, however, some ways are easier than others, and some ways will give more definite results than others.

Emanuel · 18th January 2007, 03:42 AM

Ah here's a similar one: http://old.blades.free.fr/keris/coll...bali/kba07.htm very much like yours...and the scabbard could be authentic it seems.

Oops, right Rick, I looked at the wrong picture and didn't see which side I was looking at

How worn do old Balinese blades get? Do they get the jagged edges of old Javanese blades after many cleanings?

David · 18th January 2007, 04:13 AM

Welcome Daniel. Sorry to counter you Manolo, but this is a 5 luk(curve) keris, not 7. The number is reached by counting the inside of the curve and alternating from one side to the other. It is, indeed, Balinese and i would agree that the blade is older than the dress. The dress was probably contempory to the time your granddad picked this keris up. It is not very high end, but i think it is a step above the "tourist" dress being made today. Edward Frey identifies this type of dress as being for a barong dance keris, but they seem to also be common for sale to tourists. I don't believe the figure is meant to be a raksasa, but may be a form of a rice deity whose name alludes me at the moment. Someone here will no doubt know. Note that he holds a sheath of rice over his shoulder. The blade is much nicer than the dress, though it is hard to say how much nicer since it is "out of stain" and it is hard to judge the pamor(pattern) work. Age is always difficult to determine, but i would put this one in the 19th century and it may be as old around the middle of that century.
I don't know if there is anyone in your area that can do this work, but it would be really nice to see this keris cleaned and restained. Re-staining would be what i would do with it since you have asked and you are correct that it is the tradition to do so. Old Bali keris are getting very hard to find so i would say this one is a keeper.

18th January 2007, 03:42 AM	#12
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Ah here's a similar one: http://old.blades.free.fr/keris/coll...bali/kba07.htm very much like yours...and the scabbard could be authentic it seems. Oops, right Rick, I looked at the wrong picture and didn't see which side I was looking at How worn do old Balinese blades get? Do they get the jagged edges of old Javanese blades after many cleanings? Last edited by Manolo; 18th January 2007 at 03:54 AM. Reason: man my eyes are playing tricks...left, right, David, Rick...time I went to sleep

18th January 2007, 03:31 AM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello Daniel, welcome to the forum. This does look like a Bali keris, I can't really tell the dapur (shape)besides that it has 7 luk and a nice prabot (chiselled details) which looks very nice and well done. I've been wanting to get one for a long time, I think they're magnificent. It would be nice to get a high-contrast pamor out of this keris, but the cleaning is quite an involved process, and unless you're ready to dabble with chemistry and use some arsenic-based warangan solution, it'd be nice to find someone who can do it for you. I've tried contacting some chemistry professors at my university for assistance, but no luck yet. The hilt figure is a Raksasa demon I believe, and it sort of looks like many of the new ones on ebay. The scabbard also looks much too busily decorated to me, but that's just an opinion based on very little contact with keris. You'll get lots of much better info soon from those who know Regards, Emanuel

18th January 2007, 03:42 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Hmmm, I count only 5 waves . I wonder if the entire suite might be mid-20th C.

18th January 2007, 08:16 AM	#4
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	To me the blade doesn't look like it has been forged just before being picked up. I believe the workmanship on the prabot details is average at most for Balinese standards - it's a nice blade though! (I yet have to come across a genuine keris Bali blade which I don't like... ) My best guess would be first half of the 20th century (19th c. seems also possible). I'd be interested to hear wether this piece shows any details which would specifically indicate 19th c. or otherwise. Anyway, congrats Daniel - that's a really nice start for a keris collection! Regards, Kai

18th January 2007, 02:48 PM	#6
Daniel Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: California Posts: 16	Thank you all for taking the time to post your opinions on this piece. I feel I have a much clearer idea now of what I have. My Grandfather wasn't a knowlegeable collector, and brought back from his travels a whole mulligan stew of items including spear, blow gun, shields, and a variety of swords and knives. (unfortunately most of which was lost when my Grandma had a yard sale to get rid of "junk") But he had money to spend. This keris may well have been bought as a souvenier. I don't know. I've had quite a bit of experience with metal finishing and patination--I've done some gunsmithing, antique restoration, etc. And I'm a pretty finicky craftsman. I think I can probably do the cleaning and staining myself. I don't assume it is a highly technical skill such as repolishing a Japanese blade. I'll do some research about the procedure and see what I can come up with. If I am successful, I'll post the results. Thanks again for all your help. DD

18th January 2007, 04:42 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	You might find this thread helpful. The hardest part is findind the arsenic trioxide. Other substances will darken a keris blade, but only arsenic will give you the correct colors, and even though, only if done properly. I would recommend that to make you initial attempts on some cheap blades, but even if you work on this one the process is, for the most part, reversable, as long as you don't seriously over-etch and eat away at the blade. That's kinda hard to do with pineapple juice or other fruit acids though. http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000717.html

19th January 2007, 04:01 PM	#9
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Hallo Daniel 1)To clean a rusty blade you can use lemon juice mixed together bi-carb of soda, dish-soap and a little water. Use a toothbrush. Wait for some minutes. After clean the blade with water and repeat until the blade is clean. 2)then you can use warangan. Pay attention: don't use any chimic arsenic ARE DANGEROUS!! You must do like indonesian people: you have to use realgar (natural arsenic stone). White realgar stone is not good: is good only to kill big rats. Orange-pink china realgar is good. If you don't have warangan (realgar) you can try to buy realgar in a mineral shop for collectors' stones in your cowntry but is better to have indonesian (china) realgar. 3) then mill warangan like dust (the stone is very powdered). The colour of dust will be rather white. Mixed warangan together some lemon juice (eastern lime or western lemon are the same). 3/4 litre lemon juice for one grams warangam. 4) Wait for a week. Then , during good season, put the blade inside solution and wait for some minutes (turn the blade). After put the blade to dry in the shadow. PAY ATTENTION: is better you don't have any cuts in your fingers and don't smoke (you can touch the cigarette's filter with fingers wet by warangan) 5) Repeat this until the blade becames black (and nichel remains white or grey). After wash the blade with water and soup and after only with water. If the blade is too black you can use a little lemon juice ogether water IS VERY IMPORTANT TO DECIDE THE RIGHT MOMENT TO STOP THE PROCESS: WHEN THE BLADE MEET WATER THE BLADE BECAMES MORE DARKER. 6) dry the blade and put oil (If you don't have oil: Ballistol oil is good) 7) good lack

19th January 2007, 08:12 PM	#10
Daniel Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: California Posts: 16	Thanks again for all the information. It certainly sounds like something I could do. DD

19th January 2007, 10:02 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Stylistically this keris is Bali, there is no doubt of that, but as Rick points out the pamor does not really look much like the pamor we associate with Bali.The workmanship is a little on the rough side for Bali,but we should remember that not everybody could afford the work of a top maker. I suspect that the gonjo might be a replacement---not because of the different material, that is not unusual, but because of the variation in the greneng and the lack of flow under the sirah cecak.I believe it would pre-date WWII, because to the best of my knowledge no keris were made in Bali from at least the time of the Japanese occupation, perhaps earlier, until recent times. On the subject of staining and arsenic. I am 66 years old. I stained my first keris blade when I was in my teens. I lost count a long time ago of how many I have stained. I have used laboratory quality white arsenic for all except a couple of the blades I have stained in Australia, and for the few that I have done while I've been in Jawa I have used warangan. Generally speaking, I have nearly always got faster results with warangan, however, probably the blades that I regard as the best stains I have ever achieved have been done with lab. quality arsenic trioxide. Arsenic is extremely poisonous. There is no doubt of that. However, used with normal caution there is no need to be afraid of it. Not that many years ago electricity distributors and telephone authorities used wooden poles to carry their lines. These wooden poles were treated with arsenic before they were put in the ground. The men who did this work worked at it as their normal employment. Periodically they were medically examined to check for unacceptable levels of arsenic in their bodies. Very, very rarely was one of these people ever identified with excess arsenic levels. On the subject of blade cleaning. If fruit acids are used, either brushed on, or as a soak, no damage will be done to even a fragile old blade. If bi-carbonate of soda is mixed with a fruit acid, it will reduce the acidic qualities of the fruit acid, and the cleaning process will be slower, in fact, it could even be non-existant. Bi-carbonate of soda is useful, when painted on as a slurry after etching damascus to halt the further action of the etchant. It is best that the staining process continues on immediatly after the cleaning process. Delays between cleaning and staining can allow rust to reform in humid conditions. There are a number of ways in which to stain a keris blade. I've even used sulphur and rice water to achieve a stain, however, some ways are easier than others, and some ways will give more definite results than others.

18th January 2007, 04:13 AM	#13
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Welcome Daniel. Sorry to counter you Manolo, but this is a 5 luk(curve) keris, not 7. The number is reached by counting the inside of the curve and alternating from one side to the other. It is, indeed, Balinese and i would agree that the blade is older than the dress. The dress was probably contempory to the time your granddad picked this keris up. It is not very high end, but i think it is a step above the "tourist" dress being made today. Edward Frey identifies this type of dress as being for a barong dance keris, but they seem to also be common for sale to tourists. I don't believe the figure is meant to be a raksasa, but may be a form of a rice deity whose name alludes me at the moment. Someone here will no doubt know. Note that he holds a sheath of rice over his shoulder. The blade is much nicer than the dress, though it is hard to say how much nicer since it is "out of stain" and it is hard to judge the pamor(pattern) work. Age is always difficult to determine, but i would put this one in the 19th century and it may be as old around the middle of that century. I don't know if there is anyone in your area that can do this work, but it would be really nice to see this keris cleaned and restained. Re-staining would be what i would do with it since you have asked and you are correct that it is the tradition to do so. Old Bali keris are getting very hard to find so i would say this one is a keeper.