Satanic dagger, Age & country of Origin?

[spiral]

mmmmm I am speechless, {nearly.}

I thought you would realy look into this, dont know why but I thought you would.

Instead To me it looks more like a rather ugly self inflicted gunshot wound.

The danger of a few quick google searches strung together, With the preconcieved intent of showing its not satanist.

I thought you would just expouse your veiws on the daggers symbolism but instead you try & dismantle BRLs case here ,rather than to his face if thats what you realy wished to do, seems rather unsporting or in bad taste to me.

Having seen how BRL looks at knives etc. over many years of reading every post he does & having learnt a lot from amongst that. I think he presents a much more coherant case than yourself on this or any other piece I have ever seen him or you discuss..

Evry classic artist , Archictect & indeed even myself use various computations of the Golden mean in evrything we construct. I am glad you have discovered it, now you will see evrything you look at in a different light.

Good luck with the letter opener you recently bought, actualy I havent a clue what it is other than it appears probably homemade & I am sure any cutler would be ashamed of that blade. Actualy I would recomend you ask Bernard.

Spiral

[Jim McDougall]

More excellent research Katana!!! Nicely presented and referenced!
I have found the depth of your research outstanding in detailing the esoteric data on this very unusual topic and find your writing most interesting. I am very much enjoying your well stated observations and especially much of the literary and historical detection you have done.

Spiral,
It seems we both have similar goals in our writing here, to promote the study of edged weapons and encourage others to share thier often specialized knowledge and material concerning the weapons being discussed. Thereby we all gain by sharing our observations, ideas and as you have emphasized, supported evidence. I would note here that in my original note on the orientation in viewing decorated scabbards, I made it a point to clarify that my suggestion was indeed unsupported, despite the fact that there had been supporting documentation seen, though presently irretrievable. When Wolviex added that he too had seen similar material, in a subsequent post you made what was, in my opinion, a derisive comment suggesting that if we "ever remember it please post it here or PM me if in a few years time", as "neither of you can remember where you saw it". This to me sounds unnecessarily compromising as a comment to any serious weapons researcher.

Myself, and as been shown, many others here, are very serious in researching edged weapons. I think the many detailed and well thought out posts here should show that to be a profound fact, which you should find pleasing. Many of us who have been writing here for some time have learned that unfortunately there are many 'snipers' who lurk in our midst, and we make every effort to properly qualify our comments. Despite this, even in 'friendly' discussions, mistakes can be made, and none of us are infallible.

I was disappointed with your note that my "...statements and judgement in friendly discussions always sound like pronouncements of authority", which again I would presume to be meant rather derisively. Whenever I write on a topic here, before I write I spend considerable time researching and checking resources so that I can properly reference the material I present. This is simply to consolidate data available on the weapon being discussed, and is done in hopes that others with resources not included might join in by adding the material they have access to. Frankly, I always look forward to new or unknown material being presented! This way, not only me, but the members and readership all gain the benefit of comprehensive material as well as the observations and opinions of all participating.
This is a distinct advantage I think, to all, and I rather resent my work being termed any such 'pronouncements of authority'.

Having said that, once again I must emphasize that I am glad that you posted your knife and have promoted an extremely fascinating thread. You have noted that you yourself have considerable experience concerning these occult topics, including spending some 6 weeks in current research. Perhaps you might utilize the method noted of sharing some of your research results in order to build on existing material. I think this is considerably more effective than impatience or unkind and unnecessary comments, that I think have resulted from tension that seemingly often occurs in discussions on many very esoteric subjects.

I hope we can set aside these unfortunate misunderstandings, and simply return to 'friendly' (and I mean that sincerely ! discussion on edged weapons, which as noted, I think has provided us here with one the most comprehensive threads on these occult and unusual theme daggers that has been compiled in years.

All best regards,
Jim

[katana]

Originally Posted by spiral

mmmmm I am speechless, {nearly.}

I thought you would realy look into this, dont know why but I thought you would.

Instead To me it looks more like a rather ugly self inflicted gunshot wound.

The danger of a few quick google searches strung together, With the preconcieved intent of showing its not satanist.

I thought you would just expouse your veiws on the daggers symbolism but instead you try & dismantle BRLs case here ,rather than to his face if thats what you realy wished to do, seems rather unsporting or in bad taste to me.

Having seen how BRL looks at knives etc. over many years of reading every post he does & having learnt a lot from amongst that. I think he presents a much more coherant case than yourself on this or any other piece I have ever seen him or you discuss..

Evry classic artist , Archictect & indeed even myself use various computations of the Golden mean in evrything we construct. I am glad you have discovered it, now you will see evrything you look at in a different light.

Good luck with the letter opener you recently bought, actualy I havent a clue what it is other than it appears probably homemade & I am sure any cutler would be ashamed of that blade. Actualy I would recomend you ask Bernard.
Spiral

Hi Spiral,
very disappointed that you did not read my post carefully....surely if anyone states that a FACT is a FACT ... if it should be attacked by differing views the FACTS should 'stand up' ???? I posted MY opinion.....in fact IT is easier to say that this is a Satanic Dagger.....any layman seeing the 'devil' and a few bats will look at this and say 'it must be something to do with the devil'.......Why? because in the 20th century...with Hammer Horror, Dennis Wheatly etc. we are all experts in the iconography of 'Devil worship', every school kid at Halloween knows about bats, devils, inverted crosses, black alter candles, etc. .....are they experts ....no......nor am I....but, the symbolism of the 19c is slightly different....a fact, you perhaps have missed. Like the Swastika, pre WW2 it didn't have the symbolism it has now. Our ancestors had a greater affinity to death itself, life expectancy was less, famine, plague, war and conflict more prevalent. They were more in touch with the notion of death and was more readily discussed than in todays Industrial societies. I never stated that Bernard was wrong, I am saying that this is open to interpretation and I am not totally convinced. If more information became available that further proved that this is indeed a 'satanistic' dagger, then I am 'OPEN' to the facts. You on the otherhand have already decided that this dagger, and your own... is Satanic.I am sorry that your themed dagger is not what you expected, its still a nice piece with some historical kudos. But to attack me with my 'letter opener' seems alittle sad, it is not applicable to this thread and has little to do with my opinion on this dagger. You previously stated that you wanted the truth.......if I am so wrong (which I concede I might be) why act so aggresively....surely my opinion is not so 'dangerous' to cause you upset.
Basically, I wanted to see if the symbology of the dagger could be interpreted in a 'different' light..... and I feel that it could be.....whats so wrong with that.....I have used factual interpretations....not fantasy...to support this view. It seems that you have a 'closed' mind on this subject....which would be a shame....knowledge is not 'blind', if a fact is not supported then is it still a FACT????

Oh, by the way I haven't 'just' discovered the Golden Ratio (mean) and nature has been using it a damn sight longer than you or I, or artists or architects..... The point was that the Rams horn could be a reference to a creator or divine plan.....its a possibility.

[Andrew]

Let's move on, please, gentlemen.

[David]

Originally Posted by spiral

Good luck with the letter opener you recently bought, actualy I havent a clue what it is other than it appears probably homemade & I am sure any cutler would be ashamed of that blade. Actualy I would recomend you ask Bernard. Spiral

Spiteful and ridiculously uncalled for Spiral! Try to focus and stay on topic. And if all you got out of Katana's recent post was his acknowledgement of the golden ratio you did some pretty sketchy skimming on his words. As for Bernard Levine"s case, any theory presented in the public spaces of the internet is open to examination and debate. His postion on the Florian dagger being a "satanic" dagger has been presented here by you on this forum. I see nothing unsporting or in bad taste about debating that opinion here. Mr. Levine is welcome to appear here if he wishes to defend or support his opinions himself. There is nothing in Katana's critique that shows any malice towards Mr. Levine. And untimately this is ALL opinion, even Mr. Levine's theories.
Nicely researched material Katana. But even more important than the references you uncovered is the simple understanding (so simple we so often miss it) that the signs and symbols that we identify with one thing today may have once had very different purpose and meaning 100 or more years ago. Real life is not a Hammer horror film starring Christopher Lee. Sometimes it's much worse.

[spiral]

Come on chaps.

Cheer up, no need to take oneselfs so seriously.

A lot of defensivess some of which was based within your owns needs & internal veiws of the world perhaps?

It only an old dagger after all, even if the quantity of posts generated in such a short time do show it tpo be rather rather powerfull as well as rare & possiblyunique one.

& lets face it we have flogged this horse to death, resurected it , nailed it upside down & you still wish to thrash it again.

You percieve my comments in the way you do, I do the same with yours.

I have never read so much pompus bluster before that is clearly just to do with faith & belief.

sorry I am used to more in depth research reports & concepts from proffesionals & indeed my younger students. I apologise that my expectations were to high.

But thankyou to evryone who has helped in whatever way, particularily those who provided sources for further research or photographs of further examples of the correct way to veiw these 19th century figural pieces in relation to scabbard orientation.

If any one ever finds anything concrete as a source about these figurals please email, even if its in 5 years time. I will always be intrested.

It would have been intresting to have had a piece where each person put there childhood religious belief system next to there repleys.{whether they accepted it or later rebeled.}

If I ever find out anything more concrete I will repost it, my research has only just begun.

Glad you all injoyed the band wagon! That so many clearly felt the need to join. Always intresting studying that effect.

Many thanks for the emails & offers.

But it is a keeper.

Spiral

[Andrew]

This is my final request: stop the bickering and move on, please.

[David]

Originally Posted by spiral

If I ever find out anything more concrete I will repost it, my research has only just begun.

I would be interested if you could point out one single piece of
concrete evidence that you presented in this discussion that supports your case for your dagger. You seem to expect more from us then you do from yourself.
I believe it would also be helpful for this conversation if you could accurately define what you actually mean when you use the word "satanic".

[spiral]

Originally Posted by David

I would be interested if you could point out one single piece of
concrete evidence that you presented in this discussion that supports your case for your dagger. You seem to expect more from us then you do from yourself.

Expect more from you than myself? Surely not sir, you are mistaken. I am a hard taskmaster to myself as well.

Well the empirical evidence shown by me & confirmed by pictures supplied throughout this thread by the naysayers {despite thier earlier statements.} is that the cathedral on the featured dagger has been inverted, eg. turned on its head.

My point was made by my examples, but prooved more conclusivly by 4 other other examples the antis could find of a cast figurative handle of a 19th century European dagger added to the 3 examples i had shown early in the thread.

This dagger is what it is, opinion whether mine or yours will never alter that.

If ever I find evidence or expert eg.expierienced opinion that supports or dismisses my statement that the upside down, cathedral, cross & alter sticks shows satanic or anti Christian derivation when combined with ugly bishps below the feet of a dagger armed women taking hold of a goat standing between her legs. I will share it.

For me that would not be a problem.

Anyone else is welcome to do the same in years to come.


Spiral

[David]

Originally Posted by David

I believe it would also be helpful for this conversation if you could accurately define what you actually mean when you use the word "satanic".

I still believe it would be helpful to our understanding of your position if you were able to answer the above question so that we can avoid any semantical inaccuracies. Obviously you haven't really given the question all that much thought.
Yes, this dagger IS what it IS, regardless of opinions on EITHER side of the river.
What you have shown is not "empirical evidence", it is merely opinionated theory. Though valuable it is not the same thing.
You have been presented with a great deal of evidence that reversed crosses do not necessarily imply satanism or even anti-church sentiment (cross of St. Peter?). I have never heard of nor have you provided ANY record where an upside down CHURCH is used as a sign of satanism.Skull and cross bones, owls, greenmen, ALL have very different and non'satanic meanings in 19th, 18th, 17th century Europe. EVERY element of your dagger though, fits VERY neatly into the story of the Hunchback of Notre Dame. This is not empirical evidence, merely observation and reason. Yet still it is well researched and valuable. However, you continue to respond to the combined researches of certain forum membership here with condescension, distain and disrespect. You continue to dismiss any thought that does not fit neatly into you own preconcieved ideas of what your dagger is. If we disagree with you we are merely a bunch of uninformed idiots blowing a lot of hot air. Therefore i don't see why we should continue with this thread as nothing we come up with short of agreement that yours is a true and bonfide "satanic dagger" will suffice. I therefore suggest we lock this thread and move on before someone says what they really feel.
Let's move on, there is nothing to see here.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by David

I therefore suggest we lock this thread and move on before someone says what they really feel.

I have consistently said what I feel throughout this thread. Cant you see that?

Thankyou for confirming that your approach towards both this dagger & I throughout this thread were false.

I wonder what you are realy so hurt ,defensive & upset about?

Pity you didnt feel able to share it. But then I suppose it wasnt suitable for public consumption.

But your agenda was visible in the background throughout the thread.

Thankyou for finaly acknowledging you were wearing a mask.

Spiral

[Jim McDougall]

I recall years ago researching a tulwar that had been labeled a Sikh weapon, and I had been inquiring numerous sources to find exactly what indicators or markings would define a weapon as Sikh. I eventually contacted the author of a book on the Sikh Faith with the history of their warriors. When I inquired and asked that question the author replied, "if a weapon was used by a Sikh, then it is Sikh", and suggested that they used many weapons, not necessarily marked or of specific form.

With that I realized a key factor in studying weapons in general, that often what identifies a weapon historically with any group may not be distinguishable by its appearance or origin.

Perhaps what is sinister here is not the dagger itself

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Perhaps what is sinister here is not the dagger itself

An incorrect rude & ignorant comment, truly reavealing of you & your deeper nature Jim.

Its fascinating to see people look into a mirror & then object to what they see.

Its worth looking into & working on.


Spiral

[Jim McDougall]

Spiral, I had hoped you would see the 'humor' and was trying to enlist your 'style' recalling your earlier comment "the devil made me do it" .