The Knife, Sacrifice and Meaning

Tim Simmons · 14th January 2007, 07:01 PM

The copper mace is a most remarkable object however it was used. This picture of an aztec ceremonial knife was very graciously lent to the Royal Academy London for the exhibition "Aztecs" a few years ago by the Museo National de Antropologia Mexico City. The British Museum also has a spectacular example covered in turquoise and other stones but I prefer this example. Acts of cannibalism could be straying a little off subject but it is still worth mentioning. Ritual cannibalism has been found quite far into present day USA. I have not read anything to suggest cannibalism as a supplement to the staple diet in the Americas. I have not read that the sacrifices in the Aztec empire were in any way linked to sustenance except in a spiritual manner for the priesthood. It seems to have been worldwide historically. Even in fairly modern times in the South Pacific I am not sure there is strong evidence that cannabalism was like pork chop night at the Simpsons

. However the practise has produced many of the worlds most outstanding art. IMHO

Emanuel · 14th January 2007, 07:15 PM

Fantastic dagger Tim,
Would that be a deity figure on the hilt, in the manner of the Tibetan phurpa? I find it interesting how these daggers slowly developed or acquired a personality of their own, becoming gods or spirits in their own right. The keris also comes to mind here. In time simple tools were no longer sufficient for the sacrifice, and the spirit-infused dagger took over as ritual objects...fascinating.

I recall a mention of Cretans practicing cannibalism as well at the end of Minoan civilization - when the flood created by the explosion of Santorini wiped out thier northern coast...

VANDOO · 15th January 2007, 12:47 AM

HUMAN SACRIFICE HAS BEEN COMMON IN MANS PAST IT IS EVEN MENTIONED IN THE BIBLE. THERE HAVE ALSO BEEN STORIES OF CANNIBALS SINCE ANCIENT TIMES CYCLOPS,ORGES ,ECT. OFTEN FALSE ACCUSATIONS HAVE BEEN MADE AGAINST A SOCIETY BY THEIR ENEMYS TO MAKE THEIR PEOPLE HATE AND FEAR THE ENEMY AND FIGHT BETTER FEARING THE TERRIBLE THINGS THAT THEY HAD BEEN TOLD WOULD HAPPEN TO THEM IF THEY LOST. FALSE ACCUSATIONS HAVE ALSO BEEN WRITTEN BY THE WINNERS OF THE WAR OR CONQUEST TO EXCUSE THE TERRIBLE THINGS THEY HAD DONE.

TODAY IT IS POLITICALLY INCORRECT IN MY COUNTRY TO BRING UP SOME SUBJECTS REGARDLESS OF THE TRUTH OF IT. I SUSPECT THAT IS WHY IN THE MOVIE THIS WAS TIPTOED AROUND AND THE BODIES WERE SHOWN DISCARDED EVEN THOUGH THE PEOPLE WERE STARVING DUE TO CROP FAILURE AND SICKNESS. I DID SOME RESEARCH ON THE AZTEC MANY YEARS AGO AND LOOKED UP SOME OF THE WRITTEN REPORTS FROM CORTEZ TO SPAIN THEY MENTIONED THE SKULL RACKS, CANNIBALISM. ONE REPORT TOLD OF HOW HE AND HIS MEN WITNESSED THE SACRIFICE OF SOME OF THEIR GROUP THAT HAD BEEN CAPTURED AND WHAT HAPPENED IN DETAIL. THIS COULD HAVE BEEN FABRICATED FOR THE REASONS MENTIONED ABOVE BUT SUBSEQUENT ARCHEOLOGICAL DIGS HAVE TURNED UP LARGE NUMBERS OF HUMAN SKELETONS SHOWING THE KNIFE MARKS ON THE BONES INDICATING THEY HAD BEEN BUTCHERED. THIS IS NOT MENTIONED MUCH AS SOME GROUPS OR GOVERNMENTS WOULD BE OFFENDED BUT THERE IS EVIDENCE THAT IT DID OCCUR IN SOME AREAS, TRIBES AND TIMES THRUOUT HISTORY. DON'T TAKE MY WORD FOR IT GO DO SOME RESEARCH, IT IS A INTERESTING SUBJECT AND ANCIENT AMERICAN CIVILIZATIONS WERE QUITE REMARKABLE. IT IS TOO BAD THAT SO MUCH OF THEIR HISTORY HAS BEEN DESTROYED OR SUPPRESSED BY THOSE WHO CONQURED THEM.
THE ARCHEOLOGISTS HAVE MADE SOME VERY REMARKABLE FINDS IN RECENT TIMES AND CONTINUE TO MAKE GREAT DISCOVERYS TODAY BUT IT WOULD APPEAR THAT THEY HAVE JUST SCRATCHED THE SURFACE IN SOME AREAS. SEE ARCHEOLOGY MAGAZINE, NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC AND NOVA. THERE HAS BEEN NEW DISCOVERIES EVERY YEAR FOR MANY YEARS AND WITH THE NEW SATALITE TECKNOLOGY THIS COULD BE THE BEGINNING OF THE BOOM YEARS FOR ARCHEOLOGY IN THE AMERICAS.

Emanuel · 15th January 2007, 01:27 AM

Hi Vandoo,
I was wondering about the two mace heads you posted and the knife shown by Tim. I understand that most, if not all, pre-Colombian American weapons were carved from stone...what other sorts of weapons did Aztecs, Maya and Incas have? I imagine a whole range of clubs were used...

I have the impression that talk of cannibalism is taboo in most western cultures. There's something about it that crosses the line of imfamy I guess.

VANDOO · 15th January 2007, 01:42 AM

I HAVE PICTURES OF SEVERAL STONE AND JADE MACE HEADS, ATAL ATAL (SPEAR THROWERS) AND A GOLD COVERED CEREMONIAL MACE AS WELL AS SOME OTHER THINGS BUT COULD NOT GET THEM TO COME THRU IN MY POSTS. I SUSPECT THEY PROBABLY NEED RESIZED PERHAPS I CAN GET MY DAUGHTER TO SEE WHY I CAN'T INSTALL THE SOFTWARE THAT WAS IN A PREVIOUS FORUM POST SO I CAN TRY AND POST THEM AGAIN. I AM SOMEWHAT TECKNOLOGICALLY CHALLENGED AND HAVE TROUBLE FIGURING OUT HOW THESE GADGITS WORK. THE MOVIE DID SHOW A GOOD RANGE OF THE TYPES OF WEAPONS THEY HAD AND HOW THEY WERE USED.

Emanuel · 15th January 2007, 02:23 AM

I'll make a point of seeing this movie then. I had read about jade weapons and maks, I'll look some more online. There was something specifically spiritual/religious about jade wasn't there?

Try this: http://download.microsoft.com/downlo...ertoySetup.exe
It will install automatically to the system, then you only have to right-click on the picture files in their folders and select "Resize Pictures" you'll have a choice between four sizes.

Emanuel · 23rd January 2007, 03:56 PM

I just watched Apocalypto, and there is indeed a lot of food for thought. I liked the myriad jade artefacts they used. The obsidian knives and axes were amazing, and particularly the sword club -macuahitl- a very interesting weapon: "the prefered weapon of Aztec armies. Carved of hardwood, it was fitted with obsidian blades along the two cutting edges. The weapon was as sharp as a razor and intended to maim or otherwise disable an enemy so he could be captured."

They make me wonder at how strong jade must have been to be useful as a weapon.

At a number of points in the movie, the head mayan/aztec slave-hunter brandishes and uses a very nice obsidian blade with bone handle. It seemed like he employed it specifically for some meaningful kills, not the regular slaughter. So I guess a specific weapon can gain meaning as more than a tool over time, as its performance keeps demonstrating its power and usefulness.

ariel · 21st September 2007, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

The copper mace is a most remarkable object however it was used. This picture of an aztec ceremonial knife was very graciously lent to the Royal Academy London for the exhibition "Aztecs" a few years ago by the Museo National de Antropologia Mexico City. The British Museum also has a spectacular example covered in turquoise and other stones but I prefer this example. Acts of cannibalism could be straying a little off subject but it is still worth mentioning. Ritual cannibalism has been found quite far into present day USA. I have not read anything to suggest cannibalism as a supplement to the staple diet in the Americas. I have not read that the sacrifices in the Aztec empire were in any way linked to sustenance except in a spiritual manner for the priesthood. It seems to have been worldwide historically. Even in fairly modern times in the South Pacific I am not sure there is strong evidence that cannabalism was like pork chop night at the Simpsons

. However the practise has produced many of the worlds most outstanding art. IMHO

On a South Pacific island you are surrounded by fish. But how do you find enough protein in a desert?
Apparently, human flesh was the main source of protein for both ancient Aztecs and Anasazi . Human sacrifice in these societies was a perfect blend of supernatural mumbo-jumbo and practical dietology.

Tim Simmons · 21st September 2007, 05:26 PM

Ariel can you back that statement up {human flesh the main source of protein} Guinea Pigs, Dogs, Rabbits and so on. Would have made a very disturbing shambles next to the flowers stalls in Mexico city.

I have been thinking about self decapitation {not literally} with a knife like a spokeshave as mentioned in Elgoods Hindu Arms. Is this posible? can one finish the job once the spinal cord is cut? Sounds like fun.

Bill M · 21st September 2007, 05:39 PM

The Mayans were primarily an agricultural people with very little meat of any kind. The meat they did have was usually wild game and considered a great luxury.

ariel · 21st September 2007, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Ariel can you back that statement up {human flesh the main source of protein} Guinea Pigs, Dogs, Rabbits and so on. Would have made a very disturbing shambles next to the flowers stalls in Mexico city.

Here it is. It is hotly disputed, of course, and the critics try to minimize the "nutrient" component of the ritual.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/7752
The argument, essentially, is what was the relative %% of ritualistic motives vs. just dietary ones: "Mumbo-jumbo" vs. " Aztek gumbo"

Tim Simmons · 21st September 2007, 08:35 PM

Interesting.
I am not surprised it is hotly disputed. It is hardly heavy weight. No basis in eyewitness and Spanish accounts. Whoever wrote this must think that south of the border nothing green grows. I am astonished that it is being read at all. I wonder what real historians would make of it.

Just think of all the very lovely food stuffs that came from that part of the world and the huge population not the product of man eats man society. I believe there is some basis for a scenario akin to man eats man at one time in the Easter Islands but even then I am not sure the consumption of human flesh was as blahsay as pork chop night!

ariel · 21st September 2007, 11:10 PM

Many societies practiced human sacrifice. However, they made war to enslave as many prisoners as possible and sacrificed a few to please their gods. Only Azteks ate all their prisoners, and even had a term " Corn-man" for them. They did not practice husbandry and animal flesh was not easily available. But to satisfy hunger one needs fat, and even milkfat was not available ( even vegetarian Jainists have unlimited supply of ghee). Corn oil?
one can get protein from beans but as the only source it is inefficient. Large amounts of beans? Dread to think about gastrointestinal consequences

spiral · 22nd September 2007, 12:02 AM

mmmmm A mate of mine who was recruited from a minor Brit army unit for SAS training in total contradiction of supposed sellection & volunteering process

when we were only both about 20 , He did stand out though he was above Genuis IQ, spoke 5 languages & as brave as any man ive met in an All Saints road pub or party or other dubios situations one can find themselves in as a young man etc, said he was told during training Human meat sharpens brain & eyesight more than most meats, if just lightly barbecued? could that be true? I dont know.

Might be an old wifes tale, but the fellow who told me presumed those who taught him new what it was all about.

(on another take re. sacrifice, if anyone wants a few second Dashien festival clip of Brit army Gurkhas beheading a large buffalo with one blow of a kukri , send email to spiraltwista@aol.com with kukri vid in title. & ill send you one.}

Spiral.

14th January 2007, 07:01 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	The copper mace is a most remarkable object however it was used. This picture of an aztec ceremonial knife was very graciously lent to the Royal Academy London for the exhibition "Aztecs" a few years ago by the Museo National de Antropologia Mexico City. The British Museum also has a spectacular example covered in turquoise and other stones but I prefer this example. Acts of cannibalism could be straying a little off subject but it is still worth mentioning. Ritual cannibalism has been found quite far into present day USA. I have not read anything to suggest cannibalism as a supplement to the staple diet in the Americas. I have not read that the sacrifices in the Aztec empire were in any way linked to sustenance except in a spiritual manner for the priesthood. It seems to have been worldwide historically. Even in fairly modern times in the South Pacific I am not sure there is strong evidence that cannabalism was like pork chop night at the Simpsons . However the practise has produced many of the worlds most outstanding art. IMHO Attached Images

23rd January 2007, 03:56 PM	#7
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	I just watched Apocalypto, and there is indeed a lot of food for thought. I liked the myriad jade artefacts they used. The obsidian knives and axes were amazing, and particularly the sword club -macuahitl- a very interesting weapon: "the prefered weapon of Aztec armies. Carved of hardwood, it was fitted with obsidian blades along the two cutting edges. The weapon was as sharp as a razor and intended to maim or otherwise disable an enemy so he could be captured." They make me wonder at how strong jade must have been to be useful as a weapon. At a number of points in the movie, the head mayan/aztec slave-hunter brandishes and uses a very nice obsidian blade with bone handle. It seemed like he employed it specifically for some meaningful kills, not the regular slaughter. So I guess a specific weapon can gain meaning as more than a tool over time, as its performance keeps demonstrating its power and usefulness. Attached Images

21st September 2007, 08:35 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	Interesting. I am not surprised it is hotly disputed. It is hardly heavy weight. No basis in eyewitness and Spanish accounts. Whoever wrote this must think that south of the border nothing green grows. I am astonished that it is being read at all. I wonder what real historians would make of it. Just think of all the very lovely food stuffs that came from that part of the world and the huge population not the product of man eats man society. I believe there is some basis for a scenario akin to man eats man at one time in the Easter Islands but even then I am not sure the consumption of human flesh was as blahsay as pork chop night! Last edited by Tim Simmons; 21st September 2007 at 08:52 PM.

14th January 2007, 07:15 PM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Fantastic dagger Tim, Would that be a deity figure on the hilt, in the manner of the Tibetan phurpa? I find it interesting how these daggers slowly developed or acquired a personality of their own, becoming gods or spirits in their own right. The keris also comes to mind here. In time simple tools were no longer sufficient for the sacrifice, and the spirit-infused dagger took over as ritual objects...fascinating. I recall a mention of Cretans practicing cannibalism as well at the end of Minoan civilization - when the flood created by the explosion of Santorini wiped out thier northern coast...

15th January 2007, 12:47 AM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	HUMAN SACRIFICE HAS BEEN COMMON IN MANS PAST IT IS EVEN MENTIONED IN THE BIBLE. THERE HAVE ALSO BEEN STORIES OF CANNIBALS SINCE ANCIENT TIMES CYCLOPS,ORGES ,ECT. OFTEN FALSE ACCUSATIONS HAVE BEEN MADE AGAINST A SOCIETY BY THEIR ENEMYS TO MAKE THEIR PEOPLE HATE AND FEAR THE ENEMY AND FIGHT BETTER FEARING THE TERRIBLE THINGS THAT THEY HAD BEEN TOLD WOULD HAPPEN TO THEM IF THEY LOST. FALSE ACCUSATIONS HAVE ALSO BEEN WRITTEN BY THE WINNERS OF THE WAR OR CONQUEST TO EXCUSE THE TERRIBLE THINGS THEY HAD DONE. TODAY IT IS POLITICALLY INCORRECT IN MY COUNTRY TO BRING UP SOME SUBJECTS REGARDLESS OF THE TRUTH OF IT. I SUSPECT THAT IS WHY IN THE MOVIE THIS WAS TIPTOED AROUND AND THE BODIES WERE SHOWN DISCARDED EVEN THOUGH THE PEOPLE WERE STARVING DUE TO CROP FAILURE AND SICKNESS. I DID SOME RESEARCH ON THE AZTEC MANY YEARS AGO AND LOOKED UP SOME OF THE WRITTEN REPORTS FROM CORTEZ TO SPAIN THEY MENTIONED THE SKULL RACKS, CANNIBALISM. ONE REPORT TOLD OF HOW HE AND HIS MEN WITNESSED THE SACRIFICE OF SOME OF THEIR GROUP THAT HAD BEEN CAPTURED AND WHAT HAPPENED IN DETAIL. THIS COULD HAVE BEEN FABRICATED FOR THE REASONS MENTIONED ABOVE BUT SUBSEQUENT ARCHEOLOGICAL DIGS HAVE TURNED UP LARGE NUMBERS OF HUMAN SKELETONS SHOWING THE KNIFE MARKS ON THE BONES INDICATING THEY HAD BEEN BUTCHERED. THIS IS NOT MENTIONED MUCH AS SOME GROUPS OR GOVERNMENTS WOULD BE OFFENDED BUT THERE IS EVIDENCE THAT IT DID OCCUR IN SOME AREAS, TRIBES AND TIMES THRUOUT HISTORY. DON'T TAKE MY WORD FOR IT GO DO SOME RESEARCH, IT IS A INTERESTING SUBJECT AND ANCIENT AMERICAN CIVILIZATIONS WERE QUITE REMARKABLE. IT IS TOO BAD THAT SO MUCH OF THEIR HISTORY HAS BEEN DESTROYED OR SUPPRESSED BY THOSE WHO CONQURED THEM. THE ARCHEOLOGISTS HAVE MADE SOME VERY REMARKABLE FINDS IN RECENT TIMES AND CONTINUE TO MAKE GREAT DISCOVERYS TODAY BUT IT WOULD APPEAR THAT THEY HAVE JUST SCRATCHED THE SURFACE IN SOME AREAS. SEE ARCHEOLOGY MAGAZINE, NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC AND NOVA. THERE HAS BEEN NEW DISCOVERIES EVERY YEAR FOR MANY YEARS AND WITH THE NEW SATALITE TECKNOLOGY THIS COULD BE THE BEGINNING OF THE BOOM YEARS FOR ARCHEOLOGY IN THE AMERICAS.

15th January 2007, 01:27 AM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Vandoo, I was wondering about the two mace heads you posted and the knife shown by Tim. I understand that most, if not all, pre-Colombian American weapons were carved from stone...what other sorts of weapons did Aztecs, Maya and Incas have? I imagine a whole range of clubs were used... I have the impression that talk of cannibalism is taboo in most western cultures. There's something about it that crosses the line of imfamy I guess.

15th January 2007, 01:42 AM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I HAVE PICTURES OF SEVERAL STONE AND JADE MACE HEADS, ATAL ATAL (SPEAR THROWERS) AND A GOLD COVERED CEREMONIAL MACE AS WELL AS SOME OTHER THINGS BUT COULD NOT GET THEM TO COME THRU IN MY POSTS. I SUSPECT THEY PROBABLY NEED RESIZED PERHAPS I CAN GET MY DAUGHTER TO SEE WHY I CAN'T INSTALL THE SOFTWARE THAT WAS IN A PREVIOUS FORUM POST SO I CAN TRY AND POST THEM AGAIN. I AM SOMEWHAT TECKNOLOGICALLY CHALLENGED AND HAVE TROUBLE FIGURING OUT HOW THESE GADGITS WORK. THE MOVIE DID SHOW A GOOD RANGE OF THE TYPES OF WEAPONS THEY HAD AND HOW THEY WERE USED.

15th January 2007, 02:23 AM	#6
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	I'll make a point of seeing this movie then. I had read about jade weapons and maks, I'll look some more online. There was something specifically spiritual/religious about jade wasn't there? Try this: http://download.microsoft.com/downlo...ertoySetup.exe It will install automatically to the system, then you only have to right-click on the picture files in their folders and select "Resize Pictures" you'll have a choice between four sizes.

21st September 2007, 05:26 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	Ariel can you back that statement up {human flesh the main source of protein} Guinea Pigs, Dogs, Rabbits and so on. Would have made a very disturbing shambles next to the flowers stalls in Mexico city. I have been thinking about self decapitation {not literally} with a knife like a spokeshave as mentioned in Elgoods Hindu Arms. Is this posible? can one finish the job once the spinal cord is cut? Sounds like fun.

21st September 2007, 05:39 PM	#10
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	The Mayans were primarily an agricultural people with very little meat of any kind. The meat they did have was usually wild game and considered a great luxury.

21st September 2007, 11:10 PM	#13
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Many societies practiced human sacrifice. However, they made war to enslave as many prisoners as possible and sacrificed a few to please their gods. Only Azteks ate all their prisoners, and even had a term " Corn-man" for them. They did not practice husbandry and animal flesh was not easily available. But to satisfy hunger one needs fat, and even milkfat was not available ( even vegetarian Jainists have unlimited supply of ghee). Corn oil? one can get protein from beans but as the only source it is inefficient. Large amounts of beans? Dread to think about gastrointestinal consequences

22nd September 2007, 12:02 AM	#14
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	mmmmm A mate of mine who was recruited from a minor Brit army unit for SAS training in total contradiction of supposed sellection & volunteering process when we were only both about 20 , He did stand out though he was above Genuis IQ, spoke 5 languages & as brave as any man ive met in an All Saints road pub or party or other dubios situations one can find themselves in as a young man etc, said he was told during training Human meat sharpens brain & eyesight more than most meats, if just lightly barbecued? could that be true? I dont know. Might be an old wifes tale, but the fellow who told me presumed those who taught him new what it was all about. (on another take re. sacrifice, if anyone wants a few second Dashien festival clip of Brit army Gurkhas beheading a large buffalo with one blow of a kukri , send email to spiraltwista@aol.com with kukri vid in title. & ill send you one.} Spiral.