The Knife, Sacrifice and Meaning

[Emanuel]

Hi Tim,
I've been reading about head taking in Montenegro, and it seems that in that case it was a form of warfare with some overtones of sacrifice. To them the practice was undertaken to affect the future life of the killed individuals. I understand they saw head-taking as reducing the present as well as future numbers of the ennemy, perhaps with the thought that a decapitated soul would not be reborn into future generations of fighters. There are also ballads of groups taking many heads and presenting them to the local prince or even of placing them in the towers of the local monastery. A regular fighting knife was used. In cultures that use the Ram Dao, I think the act of head-taking is purely ceremonial and undertaken in a controlled setting. The Montenegrans fought and then took heads. It's interesting that Christians would do this...perhaps a practice harkening to pre-Christian traditions.

Now looking at the Dayak, their mandaus were also fighting weapons no? They didn't need a specific ceremonial weapon for decapitation since their head-taking was done in battle. Also interesting that they did it in order to bolster their own tribe with fighting souls, not necessarily to reduce the fighting capabilities of the ennemy.
So I think that cultures developed sacrificial knives and weapons when the sacrifice was done in controlled settings. That way the whole mistery of the ceremony could be imbued into the tool used as a sacred symbol.

[VANDOO]

MEL GIBSONS MOVIE IS A GOOD STORY AND VERY INTERESTING, IT HAS SOME SPECTACULAR COSTUMES AND SETS. IT DWELLS MOSTLY ON THE MOST SAVAGE ASPECTS OF AZTEC SOCIETY AND AS A RESULT IS VERY VIOLENT AND BLOODY. THE PART WHERE THE HEADS WERE REMOVED AND ROLLED DOWN THE STAIRS MIGHT BE FOR THE PURPOSE OF DISORIENTING THE SPIRIT SO IT WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO CAUSE TROUBLE FOR THE TRIBE OR CITY.A SIMULAR PRACTICE IN AFRICA CAUSED THE HEAD TO BE HURLED THRU THE AIR BY A SAPELING FOR THE SAME REASON. THE HEADS WERE PLACED IN VERY LARGE SKULL RACKS HOLDING HUNDREDS IF NOT THOUSANDS. ROLLING THE BODIES DOWN THE LONG STAIRS MIGHT HAVE HELPED TENDERIZE THEM FOR DINNER. CORTEZ RECORDS THE LARGE SKULL RACKS HE SAW AND WAS VERY IMPRESSED. SKULL RACKS WERE ALSO USED IN NEW GUINEA BUT WERE NEVER AS LARGE. THE BODIES WERE EATEN IN BOTH SOCIETYS.

CEREMONIAL REGALIA AND SACRIFICIAL KNIVES WOULD HAVE BEEN THE PROPERTY OF THE PRIESTS OR PERHAPS THE RULER. I SUSPECT COMMON PEOPLE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO TOUCH THEM UNDER SEVERE PENALTY. AZTEC WARRIORS HAD THEIR FAVORITE WEAPONS AND SOME OBJECTS AND UNIFORM INDICATING THEIR CLAN,TOTUM AND STATUS AS A WARRIOR. THE ANCIENT CIVILIZATIONS OF THE AMERICAS WERE VERY COLORFUL AND ARTISTIC EVEN IN THEIR MORE COMMON CRAFTS SO THE WORKMANSHIP ON RARE OR SACRED OBJECTS WAS EXCEPTIONAL.

THE IDEA OF SACRIFICE IS A PRIMATIVE ONE, IT BASICALY IS MAN TRYING TO TRADE SOMETHING TO NATURE (THE GODS) FOR WHAT THE SOCIETY OR TRIBE WANTS OR NEEDS. GOOD CROPS, HUNTING, RAIN, TO KEEP SICKNESS FROM THE VILLAGE OR TO INSTALL A SPIRIT TO GAURD A BUILDING, WAR CANOE ECT. THE MOST IMPORTANT THING MAN COULD THINK OF WAS OFTEN A HUMAN LIFE PERHAPS A SLAVE OR ENEMY BUT IF THE NEED WAS VERY GREAT A FAMILY MEMBER OR EVEN A KING. FORTUNATELY THAT DARK ASPECT OF MANKIND IS MOSTLY IN OUR PAST AND OFFERINGS USUALLY CONSIST OF THE BOUNTY OF THE EARTH IN THE FORM OF FOOD ,JEWELS ,GOLD, AND OTHER GOODS. WHILE SOME ANIMALS ARE STILL SACRIFICED AS THE TRADITIONS OF THE SOCIETY STILL REQUIRE IT, IT IS MORE RARE THESE DAYS. I JUST GIVE THANKS OR ASK FOR THESE THINGS IN PRAYER AND HAVE FAITH THAT IS ENOUGH AS THAT IS MY FAMILY AND SOCIETYS TRADITION.

[Montino Bourbon]

The movie was (supposedly) about the Maya, who were a lot less bloodthirsty than the Aztecs, according to the current view of history. Gibson has been criticized for playing fast and loose with facts, and I believe that his critics are right.

Certainly his movie "The passion of the Christ" should give pause to certain imperial wanna-be regimes who fancy themselves "bringers of democracy" to "Middle-Eastern" people. I'm a Roman, born in Rome, and I am so happy that Rome got over her imperial ambitions (through hard experience) and is now a normal, civilized country. I also happen to be an american citizen and veteran, by the way.

Rome had blood sacrifice, although not usually human. There was a very well-established protocol for doing that, with professionals officiating.

[FenrisWolf]

Originally Posted by Montino Bourbon

Rome had blood sacrifice, although not usually human. There was a very well-established protocol for doing that, with professionals officiating.

Ah, but you're forgetting that the great games evolved out of funeral rites, and the deaths engendered by them were considered, at least initially, as a form of sacrifice. Later it devolved into simple bloodsport as the masses became addicted to the spectacle, but the foundation of the practice was religious in nature.

The collecting of heads as trophies/religious objects is one of the oldest in human nature; examples have been found in paleolithic sites dating back 30,000 years where bear skulls were set up in a ceremonial nature, and some form of sacrifice, whether ritual or actual, is part of virtually every religion known to man, even Christianity.

As for the significance of specific weapons being used for sacrificial purposes as opposed to picking up whatever's handy, I imagine it's an evolving situation. No doubt the first Aztec priests to practice human sacrifice used whatever blade was handy; as the practice evolved and the society changed specific blades would have become part of the priest's regalia, imbued with significance and power by their repeated use in ritual.

In my own faith it is tradition that for a person to pass into Valhalla they must die with a sword in their hand (how much of that is true and how much is Hollywood is subject to debate). Originally of course the belief was that warriors were chosen on the battlefield by the Valkyrie to join the Einherjar, the army waiting to fight with the Aesir at Ragnarok, the Norse version of the Apocalypse. These days the average person doesn't have much chance to fall in battle with a sword in their hand, so the practice has evolved that, when possible, the knidred will make sure that one of their brethren has a sword physically in their hands, or at least in their presence, when they pass away, our version of last rites.

I currently have hanging on my wall such a sword that was in my best friend's hands when he passed away. Prior to his death it wasn't anything special as such swords go; it was hand forged by a smith who makes a living making swords, but it was no different than a hundred other such swords he's made. Afterwards I commissioned the same smith to make it into a memorial sword, with brasswork and runes to indicate its history. In the future it may be used again as a ritual blade, but it will never again be 'just another' sword.

Fenris

[Emanuel]

Hello Fenris (Thor must've been quite angry at your namesake )

Interesting what you say about your last rites, I didn't know such traditions were still alive, and I'm glad they are. For us (Romanian Orthodox) we hold that one mus not die without having a lit candle in hand or close by...to light the way for the soul perhaps, but it's seen as an unfortunate thing if one dies without a candle.

About your sword obtaining a ritual significance, I have a small anecdote first recounted by a researcher oh some human psychology...when making meatloaf for the family, she had the constant practice of cutting the ends of the piece of meat when she put it in the oven; her mother had done it and so had her grandmother...why? There was no reason to do it, but the family felt that the roast was somehow better if she did cut the ends off. After some research, she uncovered that her great-great grandmother had started cutting the ends of the roast because it didn't fit in the pan! The anecdote is to illustrate that original cause or intent may be lost with each subsequent generation. The Aztec priest may have used a knife simply because it was useful, but each new generation of priest may have have had a new perception of it stemming from lack of understanding or from desire for something greater.
Regards,
Emanuel

[FenrisWolf]

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hello Fenris (Thor must've been quite angry at your namesake )

Interesting what you say about your last rites, I didn't know such traditions were still alive, and I'm glad they are. For us (Romanian Orthodox) we hold that one mus not die without having a lit candle in hand or close by...to light the way for the soul perhaps, but it's seen as an unfortunate thing if one dies without a candle.

About your sword obtaining a ritual significance, I have a small anecdote first recounted by a researcher oh some human psychology...when making meatloaf for the family, she had the constant practice of cutting the ends of the piece of meat when she put it in the oven; her mother had done it and so had her grandmother...why? There was no reason to do it, but the family felt that the roast was somehow better if she did cut the ends off. After some research, she uncovered that her great-great grandmother had started cutting the ends of the roast because it didn't fit in the pan! The anecdote is to illustrate that original cause or intent may be lost with each subsequent generation. The Aztec priest may have used a knife simply because it was useful, but each new generation of priest may have have had a new perception of it stemming from lack of understanding or from desire for something greater.
Regards,
Emanuel

Hello, Emanuel,
How traditions and superstitions evolve is a fascinating study, one that many anthropologists and behaviorists devote their careers to. Why certain things are considered lucky or unlucky are snapshots of how religions evolve as a whole.

I work in the retail environment, and one of the things I find amusing is the cycle of seasonal decorations we sell every year, especially the secular trappings of religious holidays. Modern neopagans and heathen have an ongoing struggle to rediscover what our ancestors held sacred and why. As with many suppressed religions, the documentation is scarce and extremely fragmented, and we often have to turn to clues that are buried in folk traditions as to what the pre-Christian peoples held sacred.

Take Easter for example. I don't know how the people celebrate it in Rome (or Romania), but in the US there's a huge industry around it, focusing on candy and Easter Egg hunts, with the motif of baby rabbits and freshly hatched chicks everywhere you look. I looked very carefully last year, and despite its significance as a Christian holiday, found a total of one chocolate cross. Everything else was devoted to bunnies and chicks, both of which are fertility symbols sacred to Eostre, or Ishtar, a Pre-Christian Goddess of Spring.

There are numerous other examples, none of them very surprising. When a new religion moves in and dominates a region, especially when it is enforced from above instead of converting from below (the leaders of a people mandating that their subjects convert) the festivals and symbols are often grafted onto the new religion. The same practices continue onward, but under new names.

Now as to how this relates to weapons, well I've seen comments that there have been occasional discussions of so-called 'satanic' daggers on this board. The question that needs to be raised about any such daggers is not what the symbology represents in modern context, but what it represented in the context of whoever created it. I've seen Buddhist art objects covered in sunwheels, also known as swastikas, but I don't think anyone believes that the Dalai Llama was a Nazi. And Catholic communion involves the ritual transubstantiation of wine and bread into the blood and body of Christ, but I don't think anyone serious believes that the Apostles were cannibals. So any symbols, shapes or forms a blade or hilt might take need to be studied objectively and researched VERY carefully before any conclusions can be reached.

Fenris

[Emanuel]

If the blade of the sacrificial knife is removed and refitted to another banal handle, it loses its spiritual/sacrificial meaning does it not? Conversely, the sacrificial knife may be replaced by any other object as long as it does the job and can be integrated into ceremonial gear and aesthetics. Do the cultures that still carry out sacrifices imbue a certain spirit into the tool as the Indonesians do with the keris for example? Is there the equivalent of an Isi in the knife used by the Benin witch/priest?

I agree Fenris, Easter is a peculiar holiday, with long forgotten and disregarded meaning, but then I often feel it has passed from cult to pure consumerism. Us Orthodox we have a ritual with painted eggs - ideally red to signify the blood of Christ. The chocolate things now sold everywhere are a totally different thing unfortunately.

Emanuel

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by Manolo

About your sword obtaining a ritual significance, I have a small anecdote first recounted by a researcher oh some human psychology...when making meatloaf for the family, she had the constant practice of cutting the ends of the piece of meat when she put it in the oven; her mother had done it and so had her grandmother...why? There was no reason to do it, but the family felt that the roast was somehow better if she did cut the ends off. After some research, she uncovered that her great-great grandmother had started cutting the ends of the roast because it didn't fit in the pan! The anecdote is to illustrate that original cause or intent may be lost with each subsequent generation. The Aztec priest may have used a knife simply because it was useful, but each new generation of priest may have have had a new perception of it stemming from lack of understanding or from desire for something greater.
Regards,
Emanuel

It is fascinating how rituals evolve and are perpetuated.

A woman I know lived in an apartment complex. One cold morning she got in her car and when she started the engine she heard a short-lived scream from under the hood ("bonnet" for you Brits).

She opened the hood and saw the remains of a cat. Apparently the animal. seeking warmth had gotten into the engine the previous night after she arrived home, fell asleep and was caught in the fan blades when she started the engine the next morning.

She was very afraid this would happen again, so every morning thereafter, before she started the engine, she would thump the hood with her hands a few times to be sure another cat had not fallen asleep on her engine.

Chlidren nearby saw this and asked her why she was doing this. Not wanting to tell them about the cat's horrible death, she told them that she was just "Waking up the car's engine."

Soon after, she noticed that children all over her apartment complex were thumping their families' car hoods to "wake up the engine" before the family left on an outing.

Thus a new ritual began.

[VANDOO]

WHEN FLINT BLADES BECAME DULL THEY WERE RE-KNAPPED TO SHARPEN THE EDGES SO EACH TIME THIS WAS DONE THE BLADE GOT SMALLER AND SOMETIMES CHANGED SHAPE A BIT. SO I GUESS THAT BLADES ON SACRIFICAL KNIVES WERE REPLACED AND THE FANCY HANDLE MAY HAVE BEEN REUSED OR PERHAPS REPLACED BY AN ENTIRELY NEW KNIFE
I SUSPECT THE BLADE WAS NOT AS IMPORTANT AS THE HANDLE AS IT WAS MERELY THE SHARP PART OF THE TOOL AND ALL THE SYMBOLISM AND SPIRITUAL POWER WAS IN THE DECORATED HANDLE AND THE PRIEST. I HAVE NEVER READ OF THE DISCOVERY BY ARCHEOLOGISTS OF LOTS OF DISCARDED SACRIFICAL KNIVES SO THAT MAKES ME THINK THE HANDLES WERE REUSED OR PERHAPS THE ENTIRE KNIFE WAS DESTROYED

THERE WERE ALSO SOME VERY FANCY CEREMONIAL ECCENTRIC FLINTS THAT WERE REAL WORKS OF ART AND NEVER RESHARPENED SO THEY WOULD HAVE NEVER SEEN ACTUAL USE. THERE ARE 9 SUPERB EXAMPLES IN ONE OF THE OLD NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC MAGAZINES I DON'T HAVE TIME TO GO THRU MY REFRENCES TO FIND IT BUT IT DOES HAVE A CEREMONIAL KNIFE ON THE FRONT COVER. PERHAPS I CAN LOOK LATER .

IT WOULD SEEM THE HUMAN RACE DOES TRY TO HANG ON THEIR OLD TRADITIONS,BELIEFS AND BEHAVIORS. PERHAPS THAT EXPLAINS WHY MANY OF US SEEM TO REVERT TO BABOONS FROM TIME TO TIME ESPECIALLY WHEN DRIVING A CAR