Turkish?Georgian? Polish? Shamshir

Rivkin · 19th February 2005, 03:50 PM

It's interesting that NO ME SAQUES SIN RAZÓN / NO ME ENVAINES SIN HONOR has a cuacasian counterpart "don't unsheath without reason, don't sheath without blood". Circassians and Chechens are constantly in a fight concerning who actually invented it, but it used to be a very popular motto.

Jim McDougall · 20th February 2005, 01:47 AM

Hi Rivkin,
I'm sorry! Did not mean to make you feel bad!
I think with certain weapon forms, as always, it's what the market will bear.
Here in the west, it is very difficult to obtain good Caucasian weapons, and their very exotic nature leads to quite exorbitant prices. It has been of course even more exacerbated by ebay and auction prices which have greatly inflated prices.
The paraphrasing of the so called Spanish motto is not at all surprising in the Caucusus, as trade centers there occasionally received European trade blades which bore this motto, most typically in Latin. It is of course, a very well said phrase which succinctly captures both patriotism and honor in whichever language it is used. As previously noted and referenced it is typically attributed to Spanish provenance by early arms & armour writers, and travelled quickly through armourers in Spanish, French and Italian provinces who in the period suggested for its origin, were closely linked via the Bourbon sphere.

I am happy that there is a distinct awareness becoming popular in the extremely important history of the Caucusus, however this is also key in the increasing demand and rising prices of these magnificent weapons.

All the best
Jim

Jim McDougall · 20th February 2005, 02:05 AM

Hi Jeff,
Outstanding! Thank you for that reference. I hadn't heard that term used for this scabbard before.

Andrew,
Actually the U.S. Marine Corps owns the article now, however I have contacted them to check on possibilities. Thank you very much for the suggestion!!

All the best,
Jim

Rivkin · 20th February 2005, 03:21 AM

Dear Jim McDougall,

I was just kidding.

My preception of the market is a little bit different - these swords are actually _very_ hard to find in Caucasus itself - years of wars, gun control and selling abroad took their toll. The reason these guys tend to be so damn expensive in my opinion is that Tsar used to send all the duelists (including famous poets like Lermontov) to Caucasus as a punishment. Naturally, after a few days there they would would start writing poems about gurdas, bulat kindjals and other local trinkets.

So I would guess in all ex-USSR it's pretty much a semi-fetish item that connects people to the glorious XIX century.

I'm sorry if I insulted anybody,

K.Rivkin

erlikhan · 20th February 2005, 09:50 AM

Many thanks for all valuable info friends. So, that Spanish motto is just something popular of its age . Like a lady wearing t-shirt with Marylin Monroe pic. doesn't necessarily mean she is American,or a guy with Che not a guerilla.

But still the letter style makes suggestions weigh through western Caucassia. Ok. Its still in repair and the master told, the wires were later addition as a repair, due to a broken hilt or cross guards. The writing on the grip strap is cut from the beginning or lies under the wires, and the ivory has been nailed too close to the wires. If it was original, they would not do like that, to avoid a crack with too short distance of safety to the edge. The ivory must be cut and wrapped just for repair. Turkish style hilt could be used by anybody in Arabia, as it is more a matter of personal esthetical preferences and money than political sides. It will probably be solved when the inscriptions on the hilt and scabbard are read.
About the gurda, I am spending effort, and trying to remember which stores here have shashkas with "jaws". Lol. I saw at least 5-10 anywhere quiet recently, and didn't care more than any other stamps. I am sure they are not more expensive than other shashkas here.
Jim, thanks for your offer. I sent you pm.
best regards

19th February 2005, 03:50 PM	#1
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	It's interesting that NO ME SAQUES SIN RAZÓN / NO ME ENVAINES SIN HONOR has a cuacasian counterpart "don't unsheath without reason, don't sheath without blood". Circassians and Chechens are constantly in a fight concerning who actually invented it, but it used to be a very popular motto.

20th February 2005, 01:47 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,512	Hi Rivkin, I'm sorry! Did not mean to make you feel bad! I think with certain weapon forms, as always, it's what the market will bear. Here in the west, it is very difficult to obtain good Caucasian weapons, and their very exotic nature leads to quite exorbitant prices. It has been of course even more exacerbated by ebay and auction prices which have greatly inflated prices. The paraphrasing of the so called Spanish motto is not at all surprising in the Caucusus, as trade centers there occasionally received European trade blades which bore this motto, most typically in Latin. It is of course, a very well said phrase which succinctly captures both patriotism and honor in whichever language it is used. As previously noted and referenced it is typically attributed to Spanish provenance by early arms & armour writers, and travelled quickly through armourers in Spanish, French and Italian provinces who in the period suggested for its origin, were closely linked via the Bourbon sphere. I am happy that there is a distinct awareness becoming popular in the extremely important history of the Caucusus, however this is also key in the increasing demand and rising prices of these magnificent weapons. All the best Jim

20th February 2005, 02:05 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,512	Hi Jeff, Outstanding! Thank you for that reference. I hadn't heard that term used for this scabbard before. Andrew, Actually the U.S. Marine Corps owns the article now, however I have contacted them to check on possibilities. Thank you very much for the suggestion!! All the best, Jim

20th February 2005, 03:21 AM	#4
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Dear Jim McDougall, I was just kidding. My preception of the market is a little bit different - these swords are actually _very_ hard to find in Caucasus itself - years of wars, gun control and selling abroad took their toll. The reason these guys tend to be so damn expensive in my opinion is that Tsar used to send all the duelists (including famous poets like Lermontov) to Caucasus as a punishment. Naturally, after a few days there they would would start writing poems about gurdas, bulat kindjals and other local trinkets. So I would guess in all ex-USSR it's pretty much a semi-fetish item that connects people to the glorious XIX century. I'm sorry if I insulted anybody, K.Rivkin

20th February 2005, 09:50 AM	#5
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Many thanks for all valuable info friends. So, that Spanish motto is just something popular of its age . Like a lady wearing t-shirt with Marylin Monroe pic. doesn't necessarily mean she is American,or a guy with Che not a guerilla. But still the letter style makes suggestions weigh through western Caucassia. Ok. Its still in repair and the master told, the wires were later addition as a repair, due to a broken hilt or cross guards. The writing on the grip strap is cut from the beginning or lies under the wires, and the ivory has been nailed too close to the wires. If it was original, they would not do like that, to avoid a crack with too short distance of safety to the edge. The ivory must be cut and wrapped just for repair. Turkish style hilt could be used by anybody in Arabia, as it is more a matter of personal esthetical preferences and money than political sides. It will probably be solved when the inscriptions on the hilt and scabbard are read. About the gurda, I am spending effort, and trying to remember which stores here have shashkas with "jaws". Lol. I saw at least 5-10 anywhere quiet recently, and didn't care more than any other stamps. I am sure they are not more expensive than other shashkas here. Jim, thanks for your offer. I sent you pm. best regards