Satanic dagger, Age & country of Origin?

spiral · 13th January 2007, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

I JUST THOUGHT OF A POSSIBLE DIRECTION OF RESEARCH YOU MIGHT TRY ,I SAW QUITE A FEW OF THE HIGHLY DECORATIVE CAST HANDLES IN THE LARGE ARMS MUSEUM NEAR THE EIFEL TOWER IN PARIS. PERHAPS YOU COULD CONTACT THEM AND TAKE SOME PICTURES TO SEND THEM FOR AN OPINION, IF THERE IS A SPECIALIST IN THIS SORT OF WORK THEY SHOULD KNOW WHO IT IS AND HOW TO CONTACT THEM. MANY OF THE EXAMPLES I SAW CONSISTED OF SETS OF SWORD AND DAGGER AND THE MAKERS WERE KNOWN SO A GOOD ONCE OVER WITH A GOOD MAGNIFIENG GLASS LOOKING FOR MARKS OR SIGNATURES MIGHT TURN SOMETHING UP. OFTEN MARKINGS ARE VERY DIFFICULT TO SEE ON HIGHLY DECORATED ARTISTIC WORKS.

THERE HAVE BEEN SO MANY OF THIS TYPE OF DAGGER AT GUN SHOWS IN THE USA OVER THE YEARS I SUSPECT MANY CAME BACK AS WAR SOUVINEERS FROM THE 2 WORLD WARS. THE GERMANS WOULD CERTIANLY HAVE TAKEN THEM AND THE AMERICAN GI. WOULD THEN TAKE THEM FROM THE GERMANS. I WONDER IF MANY OF THESE HAVE TURNED UP IN RUSSIA AS WELL? SOME WOULD ALSO HAVE BEEN SOLD OR TRADED DURING THE HARD TIMES AFTER THE WARS AS WELL.

Thankyou Vandoo that is a great suggestion. Someting solid at last!

By any chance do you have the name of the museam?

Spiral

VANDOO · 13th January 2007, 07:07 PM

THE MUSEUM IS CALLED ( LE INVALIDES) MUSEUM LE ARMY, IT IS JUST TO THE RIGHT OF THE EFIL TOWER AND NAPOLEANS TOMB IS IN THE BACK OF IT. IT IS A VERY GOOD MUSEUM AND WELL WORTH A VISIT IF YOU EVER VISIT PARIS. I HAD TO LOOK IT UP IN MY LIST OF MUSEUMS VISITED TO BE SURE THERE ARE 267 LISTED BOY AM I A MUSEUM GEEK

GOOD LUCK

spiral · 13th January 2007, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

THE MUSEUM IS CALLED ( LE INVALIDES) MUSEUM LE ARMY, IT IS JUST TO THE RIGHT OF THE EFIL TOWER AND NAPOLEANS TOMB IS IN THE BACK OF IT. IT IS A VERY GOOD MUSEUM AND WELL WORTH A VISIT IF YOU EVER VISIT PARIS. I HAD TO LOOK IT UP IN MY LIST OF MUSEUMS VISITED TO BE SURE THERE ARE 267 LISTED BOY AM I A MUSEUM GEEK

GOOD LUCK

Once again thankyou again Vandoo! Your constructive help is most appreciated.

I will visit this year indeed. It also gives me the excuse to visit a friend that is overdue.

Cheers,

Spiral

katana · 14th January 2007, 03:53 PM

Hi Spiral,
I have now gained the 'close up' pictures of the Bernard Lavine 'satanic' dagger and am currently researching the symbolism. At first glance the 'extra' designs do look satanic but early 'searches' seem to cast doubt on this.

However, I found this hunting sword, which has a figural hilt and ornate scabbard from France and of a similar period to your dagger. The scabbard re-inforces the fact that yours should be viewed as if the church/cathedral is upside down....but I firmly believe...as I stated before...that this symbolism is not 'satanic' but from the underlying theme of Hugo's story.

Hunting sword, ca. 1851
French (Paris)
Silver, cast, chased, partly gilt; gilt copper; steel; L. (overall, sword in scabbard) 24 3/4 in. (63 cm)

hunting sword is a masterpiece of the Gothic Revival style and a virtuoso demonstration of mid-nineteenth-century design and craftsmanship, which were greatly stimulated by the series held of international exhibitions in London and Paris in the 1840s–60s.
The grip is fashioned as a deep architectural niche formed of pierced strapwork and foliage, partly gilt, into which is set a figure, cast and chased in the round, of Saint Hubert, patron of the hunt. The cross-shaped guard is inhabited by three dogs, modeled with naturalistic detail, in pursuit of a fox, which cowers at the front of the quillon block; on the end of one quillon an eagle seizes its prey, a crane.

From the mid-sixteenth century, the French were unrivaled in the field of highly decorated, deluxe arms. This sword demonstrates that this tradition had not diminished 300 years later.

spiral · 15th January 2007, 04:04 PM

Hi Katana,

Thanks for the further the photographic example, showing scabbard orientation.

Thats a very fancy piece!

Good luck with your research & developing suppositions.

Spiral

katana · 15th January 2007, 08:55 PM

Close-up photos of the Florian Satanic dagger reveal further symbolism not previously noticeable.

The pommel end of the hilt shows a bat with the ‘body’ in a heart shape.
The sacred heart (if winged) usually has ‘birds’ wings. Could suggest satanic meaning or that the heart of an individual/ Nation has been taken or ‘captured’ by an 'evil' / malignant force

The ‘winged hour glass’ signifies the ‘fleetness’ of time…mortality or time running/run out. Again the wings are very bat like, bats are seen as dwellers of the underworld, the abode of the dead.

On the cross guard is a face…which has been suggested ( B.L. Forum) as the ‘green man’... a pagan symbol. However I think the features are more Lion –esque, it could be a lioness or young male lion due to the lack of a full main. Alternatively, it could be, the lack of main may be symbolic that the lion has lost its prestige and power. The Lion symbolises strength, loyalty, courage, royalty; power; guardian or fallen hero

On the cross guard are coiled Ram’s horns

The ram has come to represent male fertility, aggression, and courage. A ram's horn is part of a cornucopia, the "horn of plenty", symbolizing abundance. In history, rams were often symbols of leadership. It is also associated with sacrifice both physical and spiritual.

In English, the word trumpet appears many in scripture and many times it is referring to the ram's horn as opposed to the Chatzotzrah, a long, straight trumpet made usually of silver or gold. At Mount Sinai when the Jewish people received the law of Moses, it was accompanied by several miraculous signs (Exodus 19:16) among which was the shrill sound of a shofar that emanated from the sacred mountain. Later on when Joshua led the siege of Jericho, it was the blasts of the shofars (Joshua 6:20) that triggered the collapse of those impregnable walls. Still later, in the time of Gideon, it was a band of only 300 men (Judges 7:15-23) which at God's command scattered the mighty Midianites by smashing pitchers and blowing the shofar. A shofar is a curved horn taken straight from a male sheep commemorating the sacrifice of Isaac when at the last moment God provided a ram that had its horn caught in the thicket. Horns of cows were rejected because these animals were associated with the worship of the Golden Calf by the Children of Israel in the desert, a sin vigorously condemned by Moses.

In classical mythology……
In China and India, rams were the steeds of the gods. There and in other countries, rams were associated with unicorns. The nations around Israel portrayed Baal and Rashap with ram's horns. Ea, the pagan god of Destiny and the Ocean was represented by a ram's head set on top of a column. In Egypt, rams were sacred to Amun, Khnum, Osiris, and the cult sites of Elephantine and Mendes. Each year, Amun, the ram-headed creator of the universe, was sacrificed in the form of a ram which was mourned and buried with great honour in a sacred tomb at Thebes. The Celtic fertility god, Cernunnos, had a ram-headed serpent as one of his attributes. The bleating of the ram and the spiral shape of its horns made it a universal symbol of thunder and thunder-gods such as Shango, Thor, and Benin.

Interestly there is also this …

The golden ratio is present in the horns of the Ram
It has also been known for a long time that the Golden Ratio (Golden Section, Golden Mean or Divine Proportion) enables to build a logarithmic spiral easily.

Some of the greatest mathematical minds of all ages, from Pythagoras and Euclid in ancient Greece, through the medieval Italian mathematician Leonardo of Pisa and the Renaissance astronomer Johannes Kepler, to present-day scientific figures such as Oxford physicist Roger Penrose, have spent endless hours over this simple ratio and its properties. But the fascination with the Golden Ratio is not confined just to mathematicians. Biologists, artists, musicians, historians, architects, psychologists, and even mystics have pondered and debated the basis of its ubiquity and appeal. In fact, it is probably fair to say that the Golden Ratio has inspired thinkers of all disciplines like no other number in the history of mathematics.
More info here. Or Google ‘Golden Ratio’
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio
The Freemasons also hold the ‘Golden Ratio’ in high esteem, also here is shown the ‘pentagram’ and its relation to the ‘GR’..
http://209.85.129.104/search?q=cache...k&ct=clnk&cd=3

The Crossed Swords. And Inverted Torch.

As can be seen the two swords are of differing styles…..symbolic of conflict, also posted an American emblem dispaying this configuration with the torch ‘right way’ up (The French were beaten) and therefore, in this case, it means victory.
As stated before…..the inverted torch usually means death….a life extinguished. However, if you compare the Tomb symbol with the torch on the scabbard you will notice the flames are rising upward, and as I mentioned before, feel that this symbolises that the life is still ‘smouldering’…not extinguished.

The demonic / Satan figure

It is mentioned on the B.L. forum that the face is a Fleur de Lys a French National symbol. The three petals of the heraldic design reflect a widespread association with the Holy Trinity, a tradition going back to 14th century France.
IMHO I’m not so sure. I am wondering whether it is ‘demonisation’ of the enemy (German stereotype or of an individual) I found an image of a statue of Helmuth von Moltke the Elder, Tiergarten, Berlin. He organised and directed the attack on France in the Franco-Prussian war. I cannot date the statue…..but notice the unusual pose……strange for a Military leader…..crossed arms and legs…(also an unusual pose for Satan) ..facially similar too. Or also quite likely a demonisation of Napoleon III , the ruler that had let his people down, notice the ‘long’ nose and very similar beard/moustache with the ‘Satan’ decoration.

To me there are no definitive interpretation of the symbolism that associates this with Satan or that of the turmoil of the Franco-Prussian conflict. The fact that it is dated and was made in Nancy, a city heavily affected by the conflict suggests to me that the Satanic angle is less likely…..but that is only my opinion.

Bernard Levine actually states that this ‘satanic’ dagger is the first and only one he has seen that is ‘signed’. He also states that these daggers seem to increase in number after major conflicts that the French have lost i.e. the Napoleonic wars, the Franco-Prussian war, WW1, WW2 etc. Could this be a traditional attitude… to produce a sort of ‘revenge’ dagger full of evil intent to her enemies ???

The last two images are a German Busby, Braunschweig’s Hussar Regiment Nr 17. Whose honors covered both the Napoleonic Wars and the Franco-Prussian War of 1870-1871. The sight of the 'skull and crossbones' would be fresh in the minds of the people of Nancy...

spiral · 15th January 2007, 09:39 PM

mmmmm I am speechless, {nearly.}

I thought you would realy look into this, dont know why but I thought you would.

Instead To me it looks more like a rather ugly self inflicted gunshot wound.

The danger of a few quick google searches strung together, With the preconcieved intent of showing its not satanist.

I thought you would just expouse your veiws on the daggers symbolism but instead you try & dismantle BRLs case here ,rather than to his face if thats what you realy wished to do, seems rather unsporting or in bad taste to me.

Having seen how BRL looks at knives etc. over many years of reading every post he does & having learnt a lot from amongst that. I think he presents a much more coherant case than yourself on this or any other piece I have ever seen him or you discuss..

Evry classic artist , Archictect & indeed even myself use various computations of the Golden mean in evrything we construct. I am glad you have discovered it, now you will see evrything you look at in a different light.

Good luck with the letter opener you recently bought, actualy I havent a clue what it is other than it appears probably homemade & I am sure any cutler would be ashamed of that blade. Actualy I would recomend you ask Bernard.

Spiral

14th January 2007, 03:53 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Spiral, I have now gained the 'close up' pictures of the Bernard Lavine 'satanic' dagger and am currently researching the symbolism. At first glance the 'extra' designs do look satanic but early 'searches' seem to cast doubt on this. However, I found this hunting sword, which has a figural hilt and ornate scabbard from France and of a similar period to your dagger. The scabbard re-inforces the fact that yours should be viewed as if the church/cathedral is upside down....but I firmly believe...as I stated before...that this symbolism is not 'satanic' but from the underlying theme of Hugo's story. Hunting sword, ca. 1851 French (Paris) Silver, cast, chased, partly gilt; gilt copper; steel; L. (overall, sword in scabbard) 24 3/4 in. (63 cm) hunting sword is a masterpiece of the Gothic Revival style and a virtuoso demonstration of mid-nineteenth-century design and craftsmanship, which were greatly stimulated by the series held of international exhibitions in London and Paris in the 1840s–60s. The grip is fashioned as a deep architectural niche formed of pierced strapwork and foliage, partly gilt, into which is set a figure, cast and chased in the round, of Saint Hubert, patron of the hunt. The cross-shaped guard is inhabited by three dogs, modeled with naturalistic detail, in pursuit of a fox, which cowers at the front of the quillon block; on the end of one quillon an eagle seizes its prey, a crane. From the mid-sixteenth century, the French were unrivaled in the field of highly decorated, deluxe arms. This sword demonstrates that this tradition had not diminished 300 years later. Attached Images

15th January 2007, 08:55 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Close-up photos of the Florian Satanic dagger reveal further symbolism not previously noticeable. The pommel end of the hilt shows a bat with the ‘body’ in a heart shape. The sacred heart (if winged) usually has ‘birds’ wings. Could suggest satanic meaning or that the heart of an individual/ Nation has been taken or ‘captured’ by an 'evil' / malignant force The ‘winged hour glass’ signifies the ‘fleetness’ of time…mortality or time running/run out. Again the wings are very bat like, bats are seen as dwellers of the underworld, the abode of the dead. On the cross guard is a face…which has been suggested ( B.L. Forum) as the ‘green man’... a pagan symbol. However I think the features are more Lion –esque, it could be a lioness or young male lion due to the lack of a full main. Alternatively, it could be, the lack of main may be symbolic that the lion has lost its prestige and power. The Lion symbolises strength, loyalty, courage, royalty; power; guardian or fallen hero On the cross guard are coiled Ram’s horns The ram has come to represent male fertility, aggression, and courage. A ram's horn is part of a cornucopia, the "horn of plenty", symbolizing abundance. In history, rams were often symbols of leadership. It is also associated with sacrifice both physical and spiritual. In English, the word trumpet appears many in scripture and many times it is referring to the ram's horn as opposed to the Chatzotzrah, a long, straight trumpet made usually of silver or gold. At Mount Sinai when the Jewish people received the law of Moses, it was accompanied by several miraculous signs (Exodus 19:16) among which was the shrill sound of a shofar that emanated from the sacred mountain. Later on when Joshua led the siege of Jericho, it was the blasts of the shofars (Joshua 6:20) that triggered the collapse of those impregnable walls. Still later, in the time of Gideon, it was a band of only 300 men (Judges 7:15-23) which at God's command scattered the mighty Midianites by smashing pitchers and blowing the shofar. A shofar is a curved horn taken straight from a male sheep commemorating the sacrifice of Isaac when at the last moment God provided a ram that had its horn caught in the thicket. Horns of cows were rejected because these animals were associated with the worship of the Golden Calf by the Children of Israel in the desert, a sin vigorously condemned by Moses. In classical mythology…… In China and India, rams were the steeds of the gods. There and in other countries, rams were associated with unicorns. The nations around Israel portrayed Baal and Rashap with ram's horns. Ea, the pagan god of Destiny and the Ocean was represented by a ram's head set on top of a column. In Egypt, rams were sacred to Amun, Khnum, Osiris, and the cult sites of Elephantine and Mendes. Each year, Amun, the ram-headed creator of the universe, was sacrificed in the form of a ram which was mourned and buried with great honour in a sacred tomb at Thebes. The Celtic fertility god, Cernunnos, had a ram-headed serpent as one of his attributes. The bleating of the ram and the spiral shape of its horns made it a universal symbol of thunder and thunder-gods such as Shango, Thor, and Benin. Interestly there is also this … The golden ratio is present in the horns of the Ram It has also been known for a long time that the Golden Ratio (Golden Section, Golden Mean or Divine Proportion) enables to build a logarithmic spiral easily. Some of the greatest mathematical minds of all ages, from Pythagoras and Euclid in ancient Greece, through the medieval Italian mathematician Leonardo of Pisa and the Renaissance astronomer Johannes Kepler, to present-day scientific figures such as Oxford physicist Roger Penrose, have spent endless hours over this simple ratio and its properties. But the fascination with the Golden Ratio is not confined just to mathematicians. Biologists, artists, musicians, historians, architects, psychologists, and even mystics have pondered and debated the basis of its ubiquity and appeal. In fact, it is probably fair to say that the Golden Ratio has inspired thinkers of all disciplines like no other number in the history of mathematics. More info here. Or Google ‘Golden Ratio’ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio The Freemasons also hold the ‘Golden Ratio’ in high esteem, also here is shown the ‘pentagram’ and its relation to the ‘GR’.. http://209.85.129.104/search?q=cache...k&ct=clnk&cd=3 The Crossed Swords. And Inverted Torch. As can be seen the two swords are of differing styles…..symbolic of conflict, also posted an American emblem dispaying this configuration with the torch ‘right way’ up (The French were beaten) and therefore, in this case, it means victory. As stated before…..the inverted torch usually means death….a life extinguished. However, if you compare the Tomb symbol with the torch on the scabbard you will notice the flames are rising upward, and as I mentioned before, feel that this symbolises that the life is still ‘smouldering’…not extinguished. The demonic / Satan figure It is mentioned on the B.L. forum that the face is a Fleur de Lys a French National symbol. The three petals of the heraldic design reflect a widespread association with the Holy Trinity, a tradition going back to 14th century France. IMHO I’m not so sure. I am wondering whether it is ‘demonisation’ of the enemy (German stereotype or of an individual) I found an image of a statue of Helmuth von Moltke the Elder, Tiergarten, Berlin. He organised and directed the attack on France in the Franco-Prussian war. I cannot date the statue…..but notice the unusual pose……strange for a Military leader…..crossed arms and legs…(also an unusual pose for Satan) ..facially similar too. Or also quite likely a demonisation of Napoleon III , the ruler that had let his people down, notice the ‘long’ nose and very similar beard/moustache with the ‘Satan’ decoration. To me there are no definitive interpretation of the symbolism that associates this with Satan or that of the turmoil of the Franco-Prussian conflict. The fact that it is dated and was made in Nancy, a city heavily affected by the conflict suggests to me that the Satanic angle is less likely…..but that is only my opinion. Bernard Levine actually states that this ‘satanic’ dagger is the first and only one he has seen that is ‘signed’. He also states that these daggers seem to increase in number after major conflicts that the French have lost i.e. the Napoleonic wars, the Franco-Prussian war, WW1, WW2 etc. Could this be a traditional attitude… to produce a sort of ‘revenge’ dagger full of evil intent to her enemies ??? The last two images are a German Busby, Braunschweig’s Hussar Regiment Nr 17. Whose honors covered both the Napoleonic Wars and the Franco-Prussian War of 1870-1871. The sight of the 'skull and crossbones' would be fresh in the minds of the people of Nancy... Attached Images

13th January 2007, 07:07 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE MUSEUM IS CALLED ( LE INVALIDES) MUSEUM LE ARMY, IT IS JUST TO THE RIGHT OF THE EFIL TOWER AND NAPOLEANS TOMB IS IN THE BACK OF IT. IT IS A VERY GOOD MUSEUM AND WELL WORTH A VISIT IF YOU EVER VISIT PARIS. I HAD TO LOOK IT UP IN MY LIST OF MUSEUMS VISITED TO BE SURE THERE ARE 267 LISTED BOY AM I A MUSEUM GEEK GOOD LUCK

15th January 2007, 04:04 PM	#5
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Hi Katana, Thanks for the further the photographic example, showing scabbard orientation. Thats a very fancy piece! Good luck with your research & developing suppositions. Spiral

15th January 2007, 09:39 PM	#7
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	mmmmm I am speechless, {nearly.} I thought you would realy look into this, dont know why but I thought you would. Instead To me it looks more like a rather ugly self inflicted gunshot wound. The danger of a few quick google searches strung together, With the preconcieved intent of showing its not satanist. I thought you would just expouse your veiws on the daggers symbolism but instead you try & dismantle BRLs case here ,rather than to his face if thats what you realy wished to do, seems rather unsporting or in bad taste to me. Having seen how BRL looks at knives etc. over many years of reading every post he does & having learnt a lot from amongst that. I think he presents a much more coherant case than yourself on this or any other piece I have ever seen him or you discuss.. Evry classic artist , Archictect & indeed even myself use various computations of the Golden mean in evrything we construct. I am glad you have discovered it, now you will see evrything you look at in a different light. Good luck with the letter opener you recently bought, actualy I havent a clue what it is other than it appears probably homemade & I am sure any cutler would be ashamed of that blade. Actualy I would recomend you ask Bernard. Spiral