Wehrmacht officers dagger

VANDOO · 13th January 2007, 05:03 PM

I COULD BE WRONG BUT I SUSPECT THAT THE FORUM WILL NOT BE SMOTHERED IN INQUIRES ABOUT SUCH WEAPONS. WE USED TO HAVE A SEPARATE CATAGORY FOR EUROPEAN ARMS AND ARMOR ON THE FORUM AND IT LANGUISHED AWAY WITH SO FEW POSTS THAT IT WAS DISCONTINUED.

PERHAPS A STICKY WITH LINKS TO SITES DEALING WITH, GERMAN WEAPONS OLD AND NEW, JAPANESE, AMERICAN, ENGLISH,FRENCH,RUSSIAN, MIDEVEL, ECT. THAT WOULD GIVE POTENTIAL POSTERS A MORE SPECIFIC REFRENCE ON WHERE TO LOOK FOR THE KNOWLEGE THEY SEEK.

Philip · 13th January 2007, 08:06 PM

Mr. Eley
I would tend to think that most of us would stand by your view on the matter. General guidelines are fine, but insistence on dogmatic adherence immutable commandments, and the inevitable catfights that can result, are what we want to avoid. So far, I haven't seen this forum being "flooded" with posts dealing with bayonets, American Civil War sabers, or fraternal lodge swords so I think that we're doing just fine.

fernando · 13th January 2007, 09:11 PM

It looks like it is rather dificult to define in a sticky what is an ethnographic weapon without being arbitrarian or controversial. From what i see in the dictionaries, the term is more comprehensive than some wish to put it. It seems not to be necessarily rustic, or handcraft, but rather relative to Peoples customs habits and differences, in a general manner. As already aproached here, what is vulgar for an Arab, could be exotic for an European, and vice versa. A good nazi sword ( not the cheap stuff ) is so culturally interesting as a dha or a kris, or any other item often discussed here ... unless this is a restricted Forum, which is not the case, so far. It is impossible that weapons are not allways intrinsecally relative to religious or politic situations. But for what it matters in collecting, such implication deflects over the cuirasse of our indiference. As also aproached here, if a guy keeps posting specimens that do not belong to the general taste of the members, will soon be abandoned due to lack of interest ( that could well be my case ). But it should ( could ) be kept in mind that not all members limit their collections to only edged weapons, of only one or two types. I think this Forum is also open for general variety and general culture, and not just for speciality and scholarship in determined items. Let you not create an atmosphere where one is "afraid" to post images of a specimen, because it might not fall within the "selected" items.
The attached is a nice officer's parade saber, apparently made in the Wheimar period, later beautifully hand engraved and reintegrated in the the Nazi period, according to the backing history i had with it, when i bought in a local antiquarian.
fernando

VANDOO · 13th January 2007, 10:35 PM

I THINK WE ALL TEND TO THINK OF ETHINOGRAPHIC AS REFERING TO PRIMATIVE SIMPLE SOCIETYS OF TODAY OR IN THE PAST. IN FACT ALL SOCIETYS ARE ETHINOGRAPHIC REGARDLESS OF HOW ADVANCED OR PRIMATIVE THEY ARE. THERE ARE ALWAYS DIFFERENCES IN BELIEFS,TRADITIONS AND CRAFTS FROM ONE GROUP TO ANOTHER . MANKIND AND SOCIETY ARE NOT UNIFORM ALL OVER THE WORLD AND CHANGES WITH TIME AND TECKNOLOGY, BUT IS STILL ETHINOGRAPHIC IN MANY WAYS.

I PERSONALLY PREFER THE ITEMS FROM TIMES AND SOCIETYS NEARER THE TRIBAL DAYS. BUT WHAT OF THE KERIS OR KRIS AS WELL AS MANY OTHER WEAPONS YOU CAN'T CLASSIFY THOSE EARLY CIVILAZATIONS AS TRIBAL.

I THINK THE MAIN DIFFERENCE IS NOT THE PLACE,TIME OR SOCIETY BUT THE TECKNOLOGY USED AND THE WAY IT HAS BEEN MADE. WHEN A LARGE MODERN FACTORY TURNS OUT A SUPPLY OF THOUSANDS OF SWORDS TO SUPPLY A MODERN ARMY WE SAY THATS NOT ETHINOGRAPHIC BUT MILITARY. SO AMERICAN ARMY SWORDS WOULD BE MILITARY ,HOWEVER SPEARS COULD BE MADE FOR A MUCH LARGER GROUP OF ZULU ALL TO THE SAME SPEC'S BUT BY SEVERAL FORGES USING MORE PRIMATIVE METHODS AND WOULD BE CALLED ETHINOGRAPHIC.

ITS A MATTER OF PERSPECTIVE AND WE MIGHT FEEL INSULTED IF A COLLECTOR OF MILITARY BLADES CALLED OUR COLLECTION MILITARY AND HE WOULD NO DOUBT ARGUE IF I CALLED HIS COLLECTION ETHINOGRAPHIC.

OUR FORUM WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO HANDLE EVERYTHING AND EVEN IF IT COULD IT WOULD JUST TAKE TOO MUCH TIME TO GO THRU ALL THE POSTS. SO IT IS BEST TO STAY LARGELY TO OUR TYPES OF INTREST TO KEEP THINGS FROM GETTING OVERLOADED OR BOGGED DOWN. THERE ARE NO DOUBT FORUMS SOMEWHERE FOR MOST INTRESTS AND IT IS BEST TO KEEP THINGS SEPARATED. ITS KIND OF LIKE HAVING FOLDERS WITH LIKE THINGS IN THEM FOR EASE OF USE VERSES A BIG PILE WITH EVERYTHING IN IT WHERE NOTHING CAN BE EASILY FOUND.

M ELEY · 14th January 2007, 02:04 AM

Point well taken, Barry, but what of colonial American swords, for instance. These types of swords are often one-of-a-kind, blacksmith-made, often from other sword parts and constitute a kind of folk art. They, like ethnographic pieces, are often misunderstood and there are very few sites that cover them. Likewise, colonial Spanish/Mexican pieces are, IMHO, fascinating and ethnographic. As I said earlier, a Model 1899 such and such doesn't belong here, but the occasional NON-TRIBAL weapon adds color and perspective occasionally.

VANDOO · 14th January 2007, 02:51 AM

YOU ARE CORRECT THAT WEAPONS MADE LOCALLY BY A PERSON OR BLACKSMITH CAN BE ONE OF A KIND AND VARY A LOT IN QUALITY OF WORKMANSHIP AND DESIGN. THEY WOULD ALSO FALL UNDER ETHINOGRAPHIC I SUPPOSE AS I WOULD NOT KNOW WHAT OTHER CATAGORY TO PUT THEM IN EXCEPT CUSTOM KNIVES

THE ONLY ADVANTAGE THE COLLECTORS OF MORE MODERN MILITARY EDGED WEAPONS HAVE OVER US IS OFTEN THERE ARE TRAINING MANUALS GIVING INSTRUCTIONS ON THEIR PROPPER USE. WE ON THE OTHER HAND HAVE NO MANUALS AND MUST GO BY THE FEW OLD PERIOD ARTICLES WRITTEN ABOUT THEM. THE MOVEMENTS IN TRIBAL DANCES HAVING TO DO WITH WARRIORS OR OLD PICTURES OR SCULPTURE ON POTTERY OR WALLS ,ECT.
MARTIAL ARTS TRY TO FOLLOW THE OLD MOVES BUT AS NO TWO INDIVIDUALS DO IT EXACTLY THE SAME IT CHANGES A LITTLE OVER THE YEARS. THERE IS NO WAY TO BE SURE IF A MARTIAL ART HAS IMPROVED OVER THE ORIGINAL FORM OR HAS LOST KNOWLEGE AND TECKNIQUE AND MAY HAVE LITTLE RESEMBLENCE TO THE OLD FORM. IT MOSTLY HAS TO DO WITH THE MASTER TEACHING IT AND HIS ABILITYS AS A FIGHTER AND ESPECIALLY AS A TEACHER. IT IS MUCH EASIER TO TRAIN A GOOD FIGHTER THAN IT IS TO TRAIN A GOOD TEACHER AND INOVATORS ARE RARE EVEN AMONG GOOD TEACHERS.

FIGHTING TECKNIQUES WILL STILL REMAIN NEAR THE SAME EVEN IF YOU ARE STARTING WITH NO KNOWLEGE OF THE WEAPON. WE SIMPLY TRY ALL THE THINGS WE KNOW ABOUT OTHER WEAPONS AND TRY THEM AND SEE WHICH TECKNIQUES WORK BEST WITH THAT PARTICULAR WEAPON. IT DOES TAKE TIME AND A PERSON EXPERIENCED WITH WEAPONS AND NOT TOO SET IN HIS OLD TRAINING TO DO IT. FOR EXAMPLE A CHAMPION FENCER WOULD FIND FEW OF HIS TECKNIQUES WOULD WORK WELL WITH SOME WEAPONS AND WOULD HAVE TO BE FLEXABLE AND ADAPT TO BE ABLE TO FIGURE OUT HOW IT WOULD WORK BEST IN A FIGHT.

OH WELL! OFF TOPIC I GO INTO THE WILD BLUE YONDER

CharlesS · 15th January 2007, 03:30 AM

I collected Imperial German and Nazi militaria for years before deciding to sell it and collect exclusively ethnographic blades. The fact that a Nazi sword has appeared here I find both confusing and disappointing, even somewhat offensive....a 100% machine made sword that shows no hint of the nature of the original craftsman's touch(except maybe his politics!!)

Note the subdivisions of our title page....takoubas, koumayas, keris, shamshir, dao, dhas, etc.....each at some level with a hint of a human touch that distinguishes it as unique, perhaps one of a kind, and certainly characteristic of a genre of weapons from a certain geographical region.

The Nazi sword identifies a machine made piece, from a 12 year era, never intended to actually be used, and other than its politcal persuasion, nothing about it is particularly unique from any other dress swords from the industrialized world of the same period.

Is this really what we want here? I do not argue with the collection of such pieces, afterall, I used to do it myself, but I do argue that this simply is NOT the venue for it any more than it is the correct venue for an M-16 bayonet.

Sure, it was just an "example" of another supposedly ethnographic piece, but surely I am not the only one that sees the irony of a Nazi sword on this forum....just a little piece of history from a political mentality that would have seen the populations and producers of the weapons most of us collect as 2nd or 3rd class citizens of the world, most marked as "sub-human", and many marked for eventual extermination. Sure the Nazis were not history's only "haters", but thay set a standard for it that has yet to be remotely equalled.

Is this really a door we want to open?

I would be more sympathetic if I thought there were no other venues for modern, even Nazi pieces, to be illustrated, explored and discussed, but there are, and I see nothing wrong with us having our own humble "corner" of the world wide web to explore something else.

13th January 2007, 09:11 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	catharsis It looks like it is rather dificult to define in a sticky what is an ethnographic weapon without being arbitrarian or controversial. From what i see in the dictionaries, the term is more comprehensive than some wish to put it. It seems not to be necessarily rustic, or handcraft, but rather relative to Peoples customs habits and differences, in a general manner. As already aproached here, what is vulgar for an Arab, could be exotic for an European, and vice versa. A good nazi sword ( not the cheap stuff ) is so culturally interesting as a dha or a kris, or any other item often discussed here ... unless this is a restricted Forum, which is not the case, so far. It is impossible that weapons are not allways intrinsecally relative to religious or politic situations. But for what it matters in collecting, such implication deflects over the cuirasse of our indiference. As also aproached here, if a guy keeps posting specimens that do not belong to the general taste of the members, will soon be abandoned due to lack of interest ( that could well be my case ). But it should ( could ) be kept in mind that not all members limit their collections to only edged weapons, of only one or two types. I think this Forum is also open for general variety and general culture, and not just for speciality and scholarship in determined items. Let you not create an atmosphere where one is "afraid" to post images of a specimen, because it might not fall within the "selected" items. The attached is a nice officer's parade saber, apparently made in the Wheimar period, later beautifully hand engraved and reintegrated in the the Nazi period, according to the backing history i had with it, when i bought in a local antiquarian. fernando Attached Images

13th January 2007, 05:03 PM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I COULD BE WRONG BUT I SUSPECT THAT THE FORUM WILL NOT BE SMOTHERED IN INQUIRES ABOUT SUCH WEAPONS. WE USED TO HAVE A SEPARATE CATAGORY FOR EUROPEAN ARMS AND ARMOR ON THE FORUM AND IT LANGUISHED AWAY WITH SO FEW POSTS THAT IT WAS DISCONTINUED. PERHAPS A STICKY WITH LINKS TO SITES DEALING WITH, GERMAN WEAPONS OLD AND NEW, JAPANESE, AMERICAN, ENGLISH,FRENCH,RUSSIAN, MIDEVEL, ECT. THAT WOULD GIVE POTENTIAL POSTERS A MORE SPECIFIC REFRENCE ON WHERE TO LOOK FOR THE KNOWLEGE THEY SEEK.

13th January 2007, 08:06 PM	#2
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Mr. Eley I would tend to think that most of us would stand by your view on the matter. General guidelines are fine, but insistence on dogmatic adherence immutable commandments, and the inevitable catfights that can result, are what we want to avoid. So far, I haven't seen this forum being "flooded" with posts dealing with bayonets, American Civil War sabers, or fraternal lodge swords so I think that we're doing just fine.

13th January 2007, 10:35 PM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I THINK WE ALL TEND TO THINK OF ETHINOGRAPHIC AS REFERING TO PRIMATIVE SIMPLE SOCIETYS OF TODAY OR IN THE PAST. IN FACT ALL SOCIETYS ARE ETHINOGRAPHIC REGARDLESS OF HOW ADVANCED OR PRIMATIVE THEY ARE. THERE ARE ALWAYS DIFFERENCES IN BELIEFS,TRADITIONS AND CRAFTS FROM ONE GROUP TO ANOTHER . MANKIND AND SOCIETY ARE NOT UNIFORM ALL OVER THE WORLD AND CHANGES WITH TIME AND TECKNOLOGY, BUT IS STILL ETHINOGRAPHIC IN MANY WAYS. I PERSONALLY PREFER THE ITEMS FROM TIMES AND SOCIETYS NEARER THE TRIBAL DAYS. BUT WHAT OF THE KERIS OR KRIS AS WELL AS MANY OTHER WEAPONS YOU CAN'T CLASSIFY THOSE EARLY CIVILAZATIONS AS TRIBAL. I THINK THE MAIN DIFFERENCE IS NOT THE PLACE,TIME OR SOCIETY BUT THE TECKNOLOGY USED AND THE WAY IT HAS BEEN MADE. WHEN A LARGE MODERN FACTORY TURNS OUT A SUPPLY OF THOUSANDS OF SWORDS TO SUPPLY A MODERN ARMY WE SAY THATS NOT ETHINOGRAPHIC BUT MILITARY. SO AMERICAN ARMY SWORDS WOULD BE MILITARY ,HOWEVER SPEARS COULD BE MADE FOR A MUCH LARGER GROUP OF ZULU ALL TO THE SAME SPEC'S BUT BY SEVERAL FORGES USING MORE PRIMATIVE METHODS AND WOULD BE CALLED ETHINOGRAPHIC. ITS A MATTER OF PERSPECTIVE AND WE MIGHT FEEL INSULTED IF A COLLECTOR OF MILITARY BLADES CALLED OUR COLLECTION MILITARY AND HE WOULD NO DOUBT ARGUE IF I CALLED HIS COLLECTION ETHINOGRAPHIC. OUR FORUM WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO HANDLE EVERYTHING AND EVEN IF IT COULD IT WOULD JUST TAKE TOO MUCH TIME TO GO THRU ALL THE POSTS. SO IT IS BEST TO STAY LARGELY TO OUR TYPES OF INTREST TO KEEP THINGS FROM GETTING OVERLOADED OR BOGGED DOWN. THERE ARE NO DOUBT FORUMS SOMEWHERE FOR MOST INTRESTS AND IT IS BEST TO KEEP THINGS SEPARATED. ITS KIND OF LIKE HAVING FOLDERS WITH LIKE THINGS IN THEM FOR EASE OF USE VERSES A BIG PILE WITH EVERYTHING IN IT WHERE NOTHING CAN BE EASILY FOUND.

14th January 2007, 02:04 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Point well taken, Barry, but what of colonial American swords, for instance. These types of swords are often one-of-a-kind, blacksmith-made, often from other sword parts and constitute a kind of folk art. They, like ethnographic pieces, are often misunderstood and there are very few sites that cover them. Likewise, colonial Spanish/Mexican pieces are, IMHO, fascinating and ethnographic. As I said earlier, a Model 1899 such and such doesn't belong here, but the occasional NON-TRIBAL weapon adds color and perspective occasionally.

14th January 2007, 02:51 AM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	YOU ARE CORRECT THAT WEAPONS MADE LOCALLY BY A PERSON OR BLACKSMITH CAN BE ONE OF A KIND AND VARY A LOT IN QUALITY OF WORKMANSHIP AND DESIGN. THEY WOULD ALSO FALL UNDER ETHINOGRAPHIC I SUPPOSE AS I WOULD NOT KNOW WHAT OTHER CATAGORY TO PUT THEM IN EXCEPT CUSTOM KNIVES THE ONLY ADVANTAGE THE COLLECTORS OF MORE MODERN MILITARY EDGED WEAPONS HAVE OVER US IS OFTEN THERE ARE TRAINING MANUALS GIVING INSTRUCTIONS ON THEIR PROPPER USE. WE ON THE OTHER HAND HAVE NO MANUALS AND MUST GO BY THE FEW OLD PERIOD ARTICLES WRITTEN ABOUT THEM. THE MOVEMENTS IN TRIBAL DANCES HAVING TO DO WITH WARRIORS OR OLD PICTURES OR SCULPTURE ON POTTERY OR WALLS ,ECT. MARTIAL ARTS TRY TO FOLLOW THE OLD MOVES BUT AS NO TWO INDIVIDUALS DO IT EXACTLY THE SAME IT CHANGES A LITTLE OVER THE YEARS. THERE IS NO WAY TO BE SURE IF A MARTIAL ART HAS IMPROVED OVER THE ORIGINAL FORM OR HAS LOST KNOWLEGE AND TECKNIQUE AND MAY HAVE LITTLE RESEMBLENCE TO THE OLD FORM. IT MOSTLY HAS TO DO WITH THE MASTER TEACHING IT AND HIS ABILITYS AS A FIGHTER AND ESPECIALLY AS A TEACHER. IT IS MUCH EASIER TO TRAIN A GOOD FIGHTER THAN IT IS TO TRAIN A GOOD TEACHER AND INOVATORS ARE RARE EVEN AMONG GOOD TEACHERS. FIGHTING TECKNIQUES WILL STILL REMAIN NEAR THE SAME EVEN IF YOU ARE STARTING WITH NO KNOWLEGE OF THE WEAPON. WE SIMPLY TRY ALL THE THINGS WE KNOW ABOUT OTHER WEAPONS AND TRY THEM AND SEE WHICH TECKNIQUES WORK BEST WITH THAT PARTICULAR WEAPON. IT DOES TAKE TIME AND A PERSON EXPERIENCED WITH WEAPONS AND NOT TOO SET IN HIS OLD TRAINING TO DO IT. FOR EXAMPLE A CHAMPION FENCER WOULD FIND FEW OF HIS TECKNIQUES WOULD WORK WELL WITH SOME WEAPONS AND WOULD HAVE TO BE FLEXABLE AND ADAPT TO BE ABLE TO FIGURE OUT HOW IT WOULD WORK BEST IN A FIGHT. OH WELL! OFF TOPIC I GO INTO THE WILD BLUE YONDER

15th January 2007, 03:30 AM	#7
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	I collected Imperial German and Nazi militaria for years before deciding to sell it and collect exclusively ethnographic blades. The fact that a Nazi sword has appeared here I find both confusing and disappointing, even somewhat offensive....a 100% machine made sword that shows no hint of the nature of the original craftsman's touch(except maybe his politics!!) Note the subdivisions of our title page....takoubas, koumayas, keris, shamshir, dao, dhas, etc.....each at some level with a hint of a human touch that distinguishes it as unique, perhaps one of a kind, and certainly characteristic of a genre of weapons from a certain geographical region. The Nazi sword identifies a machine made piece, from a 12 year era, never intended to actually be used, and other than its politcal persuasion, nothing about it is particularly unique from any other dress swords from the industrialized world of the same period. Is this really what we want here? I do not argue with the collection of such pieces, afterall, I used to do it myself, but I do argue that this simply is NOT the venue for it any more than it is the correct venue for an M-16 bayonet. Sure, it was just an "example" of another supposedly ethnographic piece, but surely I am not the only one that sees the irony of a Nazi sword on this forum....just a little piece of history from a political mentality that would have seen the populations and producers of the weapons most of us collect as 2nd or 3rd class citizens of the world, most marked as "sub-human", and many marked for eventual extermination. Sure the Nazis were not history's only "haters", but thay set a standard for it that has yet to be remotely equalled. Is this really a door we want to open? I would be more sympathetic if I thought there were no other venues for modern, even Nazi pieces, to be illustrated, explored and discussed, but there are, and I see nothing wrong with us having our own humble "corner" of the world wide web to explore something else.