Satanic dagger, Age & country of Origin?

[Jim McDougall]

I think the most interesting factor in this thread is that somewhat specious assessment or perception of an unusually decorated dagger from the original post evolved into some fascinating discussion and posts concerning some extremely esoteric material. Subsequent review and presentation of developing opinions and some very well supported ideas led to very plausible solutions to the meaning of the unusual motif. I also think that for the most part the members have maintained outstanding control despite some unfortunately barbed comments that were entirely unnecessary.

Many of these, however, in my 'opinion' were perhaps wry, misguided attempts at humor? that perhaps arose from either misinterpretation or perception of comments that appear to derive from flawed linguistic syntax or misspelled words. As has been noted, written communication typically lacks necessary sensitivity, and often transliteration completely inhibits delivery in the case of humor.

In the instance of Spiral reemphasizing my own faux pas in expressing an unsupported observation concerning the viewing of scabbards, despite the manner in which he expressed his comments, I presume that he did not intend to sound insulting. Actually it was a good reminder that one cannot be too careful in making statements in friendly discussion, even if you carefully qualify your comment. It is important to remember that the comments you make, regardless of how well qualified, are not necessarily well interpreted by those who read them.

This thread has been extremely informative, and I have very much enjoyed the posts and discussion, though of course, inconclusive. I think we have all learned quite a lot about these theme daggers as well as on the elusive daggers of occult regalia. The topic has proven, as may be expected, extremely difficult, as it does not lend itself well to the expectations of those who adhere closely to restrictive academic perameters regardless of the character of the discussion at hand.

In all, a very exhilerating thread!

All best regards,
Jim

[VANDOO]

I MUST ADMIT I AM A BIT SHY ABOUT GETTING INTO THIS AS I AM NOT AN EXPERT IN THIS TYPE OF ARTEFACT NOR HAVE I A LARGE COLLECTION OF THEM AND HAVE NOT CAREEFULLY RESEARCHED THE SUBJECT OF SATAN WORSHIP NOR PRACTICED IT. SO ANYTHING I SAY WILL BASED ON LOGIC AND MY PERSONEL OPINIONS SO I HOPE I DON'T WASTE ANYONES TIME , AND I HOPE I DON'T GET MY TAIL FEATHERS SCORCHED OFF

I HAVE SEEN AND HANDLED QUITE A FEW KNIVES OF THIS TYPE FROM THE EARLY 1960'S UNTIL THE LAST ONE IN THE 1990'S. THEY WERE AT GUN SHOWS AND WERE ALWAYS TOO HIGH PRICED FOR ME TO EVER OWN ONE BUT I ALWAYS ENJOYED LOOKING AT THE VARIETY AND EXCELLENT WORKMANSHIP. I DON'T REMBER EVER SEEING A EXAMPLE THAT SHOWED A LOT OF WEAR FROM USE ALTHOUGH THEY DID SHOW AGE AND A FEW HAD BEEN ABUSED BY SOME CHILD OR ADULT DOLT. I HAVE ONLY SEEN ONE EXAMPLE MISSING ITS SCABBARD THIS WOULD INDICATE TO ME THAT THE DAGGERS WERE USUALLY VERY WELL TAKEN CARE OF AND WERE VERY EXPENSIVE WHEN THEY WERE MADE AND DURING THE PERIOD OF THEIR USE. OFTEN THEY WERE DESCRIBED AS WITCHCRAFT DAGGERS OR ASSOCIATED WITH SECERET SOCIETYS.

I THINK THEY USUALLY WERE CUSTOM MADE OR TO SHOW OFF THE SKILL OF THE MAKERS AND REFLECTED THE CURRENT FASHONS OF THE SOCIETY AT THE TIME. I ALSO EXPECT THAT ONLY THE RICH OR WEALTHY PEOPLE BELONGING TO A SECERET SOCIETY COULD HAVE AFFORDED THEM. THERE WERE MANY SECRET SOCIETYS IN THE PAST IN MOST COUNTRYS SOME STILL EXHIST AND MANY DO NOT. THE SKULL SYMBOL IS OFTEN A REMINDER OF MANS MORTALITY AS WE ALL PONDER DEATH FROM TIME TO TIME. MOST OF THE OTHER SYMBOLS PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED ALSO HAVE SEVERAL WAYS OF INTREPETING THEM.
MANY OF THE THINGS SAID TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH SATAN WORSHIP WERE RELATED TO THE OLD IDEAS OF NATURE WORSHIP WHICH IS NOT SATANISM OR WITCHCRAFT BUT A REVERENCE FOR NATURE AND THE FORCE OR FORCES THAT CREATED EVERYTHING. IN THE PROCESS OF ONE RELIGION DISPOSING OF A OLDER LOCAL RELIGION ALL SUCH BELIEFS AND THEIR SYMBOLS WERE SAID TO BE OF THE DEVIL AND FEARSOME EXAMPLES WERE MADE OF PEOPLE TO TRY AND STAMP OUT SUCH PRACTICES.
MANY SECRET SOCIETYS EVOLVED FROM THIS AND BEING SECRET I AM SURE THEY HAD SECRET SIGNS AND MEETINGS SO IF HISTORY NOTES THEM AT ALL IT WILL BE FROM THE VIEWS OF THOSE WHO FIND AND DESTROY THEM. IF THEY BELONGED TO SUCH A SOCIETY AND IT IS STILL IN EXHISTANCE I DOUBT THAT THE KNIFE WOULD HAVE BEEN SOLD UNLESS A THIEF TOOK IT.
PERHAPS THERE ARE THOSE WHO WORSHIP SATAN AND HOPE TO GAIN WEALTH AND POWER THRU IT BUT I WOULD THINK THEY WOULD BE FAR AND FEW IN BETWEEN THROUGHT HISTORY. MANY OF THE THINGS YOU READ ABOUT BLACK MASSES, HUMAN SACRIFICE, SUMMONING DEAMONS , VAMPIRES, DRAGONS AND ORGES ARE BASED ON OLD TALES, BOOKS, MOVIES AND SUCH. SOME CHOOSE TO BELIEVE IN THESE STORYS AND TRY TO BECOME A MASTER OF THE BLACK ARTS OR A WICKED WITCH AND MAY DO SOME TERRIBLE SECRET THINGS AND BECOME FEARED AS A DEAMON IN HUMAN FORM. THIS IS THEIR DOING BUT I FEEL THEY DON'T GET ANY REAL POWER FROM IT AND IT IS A FORM OF ROLE PLAYING GAME. THE DEVIL WILL OF COURSE TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS FOR HIS OWN ENDS BUT IS A FRIEND TO NO MAN.

FIGURES FROM GREEK, ROMAN, EGYPTIAN AND OTHER TIMES AND COUNTRYS HAVE BECOME THE FASHON IN ART THROUGHOUT HISTORY. PERHAPS THE INDIVIDUAL WHO BOUGHT OR ORDERED THE DAGGER MADE WOULD KNOW WHAT ALL THE SYMBOLS STOOD FOR, PERHAPS NOT. A SECRET SOCIETY WOULD KNOW WHAT THE SYMBOLS STOOD FOR AND THEY WOULD BE A PART OF THEIR CREDO.
I WOULD THINK THAT ONE WHO PRACTEDED THE BLACK ARTS WOULD HAVE SOME PROTECTIVE SPELLS AND DEADLY CURSES INCORPORATED INTO THE DESIGNS UNLESS CURSES AND SPELLS CAN ONLY BE SPOKEN.? BUT I DON'T SEE WHY THEY WOULD HAVE RELIGIOUS SYMBOLS OF THE CHURCH AND SUCH ON A IMPLEMENT THEY PLANNED TO USE TO DESICRATE THE CHURCH AND RELIGION.

SOME POSSIBILITYS FOR THE ORIGINAL DAGGER WOULD BE
1. ONE OR MORE EXAMPLES WERE MADE TO BE PRESENTED AS GIFTS TO SOME IMPORTANT PERSON. PERHAPS VICTOR HUGO HIMSELF? IF YOU COULD PROVE THAT IT WOULD BE WORTH MORE THAN A MERE SATANIC DAGGER

2. AN ARTIST LIKED THE BOOK AND WAS INSPIRED TO MAKE THE KNIFE OR SOMEONE ELSE COMMISIONED IT AS HE WAS A FAN OF VICTOR HUGO.

3. THE VICTOR HUGO FAN CLUB HAD THEM MADE IN THE THOUSANDS FOR ALL MEMBERS OR NOT

I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY OF THESE DAGGERS TAKEN APART BEFORE AND WONDER IF VERY MANY KNIVES WERE MADE WITH THE DETACHABLE BLADE AND IF IT MIGHT HAVE HAD MULTIPLE BLADES FOR DIFFERENT USES?

MY GUT FEELING ABOUT THIS TYPE OF KNIFE IS THAT IT WAS NOT MADE FOR USE BY THOSE WHO WORSHIP SATAN. BUT IN THE YEARS SINCE ITS CREATION WHO KNOWS WHO HAS HAD IT OR WHAT THEY HAVE USED IT FOR. AS THEY HAVE BEEN SOLD AS DAGGERS RELATED TO WITCHCRAFT, ECT. AT LEAST SINCE THE EARLY 1960'S.

SORRY I CAN'T LAY ALL THE INFORMATION OF THE TYPE AND THE HISTORY ON YOU . BUT REGARDLESS OF WHAT IT IS ITS A REAL SWEET DAGGER AND IT HAS BEEN A VERY INTERESTING DISCUSSION.

PS. THE SWASTKA IS ALSO AN ANCIANT SYMBOL USED BY SOME OF THE AMERICAN INDIAN TRIBES, A VERY OLD SYMBOL BUT NOTHING EVIL ABOUT IT.

[katana]

Intrigued by ‘Satanistic’ daggers I began investigating one of the daggers you have posted…..
i.e the 1871 Satanic knife brokered by Bernard Levine some years ago for $10,000.


On Bernard’s site the knife is stated as marked “ Fait a Nancy en 1871 par Florian ROYAL” this translates to “ Made in Nancy in 1871 for Royal Florian’ .

Seems strange that a ‘covert’ dagger would have where its made and whom for…clearly marked on it……

Historically, in 1871 ….

The Franco-Prussian War (July 19, 1870 – May 10, 1871) was declared by France on Prussia, which was backed by the North German Confederation and the south German states of Baden, Württemberg and Bavaria. The conflict marked the culmination of tension between the two powers following Prussia's rise to dominance in Germany, which before 1866 was still a loose federation of quasi-independent territories.

More info here (yes Spiral, Wikipedia again… …..there are many other references but this one is fairly concise )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Prussian_War


This war caused political and social upheaval….


1871-1918:
At the time of the French defeat of 1871, the German-speaking parts of the département of Meurthe and of the département of Moselle were merged to build one of the 3 districts of the Alsace-Lorraine Reichsland:


France lost Alsace-Lorraine in 1871, Nancy lost the arrondissements of Sarrebourg and Château-Salins which, having become German, were united with the Diocese of Metz. Nancy however annexed the arrondissement of Briey which remained French, and was detached from the Diocese of Metz (consistorial decrees of 10 and 14 July, 1874).


The annexation of a part of the French territory increased the importance of Nancy. As an out- post, situated near the border, it was a city full of barracks but, at the same time, it was a place of safety for a great number of industrialists who refused to adopt German nationality. The drift from the land also benefited the city since much housing had to be built.


Now we have a historical context to which we can use to view this knife and its possible ‘symbology’. Yes it has, at first glance demonic conertations, but I feel there are other possible explainations to the dagger’s decoration.



1. The skull and crossbones…….death, mortality

2. The sacred heart (on hilt)…. The Sacred Heart of Jesus is today one of the most recognizable symbols of the Catholic faith. The image originated in France near the end of the seventeenth century. The bishop of Marseille, Monseigneur de Belsunce, consecrated his diocese to the Sacred Heart in an effort to spare the region from plague. The plague passed over Marseille, and the symbol became very popular, associated with acts of charity and piety and used as a charm against plague.
3.The cross of Lorraine (small on hilt) …… In the XIXth century, the cross of Lorraine was included among the iconographical attributes of Joan of Arc, who was from Lorraine. After the incorporation of a great part of Lorraine to Germany following the 1870 war, the cross of Lorraine became a symbol of memory and resistance.
The hill of Sion-Vaudémont, located 20 km south of Nancy, is the most important symbol of Lorrain patriotism. The hill has the shape of a horseshoe and is therefore considered as a good omen. In the Middle-Ages, the hill was a place of prayer for the Crusaders, and received the name of Zion (in French, Sion). It is said that René de Vaudémont defeated Charles le Téméraire under the banner of Notre-Dame de Sion.
4. The Owl…….(as already discussed) In many parts of the world, owls have been associated with death and misfortune, likely due to their nocturnal activity and common screeching call. However, owls have also been associated with wisdom and prosperity as a result of frequently being companion animals for goddesses.
5. The Torch…… A torch, like a candle, represents life. A torch seen ablaze represents immortality, the everlasting life, and wisdom (like the lamp--a symbol of knowledge). Conversely, an inverted torch symbolizes death--a life extinguished. However, the inverted torch in this case….is still ablaze…..flames rising upward. (If it was put right way up the flames would be travelling downward ?) I believe that this translates to ‘not quite dead’ as if ready to spring to life when the opportunity arises……..ie the French beaten but the flames of resistance is very much alive
6. The crossed swords…… as symbol of armed force……being crossed could have religious conertations or as an idiom means to have a grevance or disagreement with. Perhaps with the torch symbol means ‘we (the French) maybe down……but are ready and waiting to defeat German rule…..
7. The demon/devil…….winged examples are usually shown as having membraneous wings (like a bat) as feathers are associated with angels. This Demon has the ‘framework’ for such wings but no membrane visible…..this suggests to me the demon is unable to fly and is therefore….somehow ‘disabled’.
Its arms are crossed…….seems to be waiting,….. or showing defiance ??
Its legs are entwined , it seems immobile, trapped………
We could summise, with the political/social problems at the time…..that this could be symbolic of the ‘evil intent’ or feeling against the Germans that at present, is not at ‘full strength’ and that the ‘beast’ is waiting for the opportunity to gather its power.

There are other demon/devil decoration on the Hilt, which I think could be just…..decoration……
Carvers of the earlier Romanesque period, especially in France, had produced more monsters and demons than any others in the whole history of Christian art, occupying prominent positions such as door heads, corbels and porches. Indeed, they occasionally outnumbered the Christian images, and their use was condemned by St Bernard of Clairvaux in the twelfth century. During the Gothic period they very gradually assumed minor positions, sinking at last to the level of mere parody. It has been observed that such carvings are almost antipathetic to Romanesque and Gothic architecture, and represent survivals of earlier pagan beliefs still dear to the people. The prominent place given to the demon in the picture is symbolic, as is its pairing with another satanic creature, the bat, which (like the owl) was singled out for unfavourable mention in the Old Testament. The devilish position of bats in European folklore is usually explained by their demonic faces and inverted life-style. (They live by night, appear to 'see' in the dark and hang upside down when they sleep.)

In conclusion, there is a distinct possibility that this knife, although beautifully made, is a ‘commemorative’ inspired knife, sure it has, what many would describe as satanistic decoration. But the facts and views above, cast serious doubt on this definitely being a ‘Satanic’ dagger.


The other dagger, that Spiral and I both posted......has a simple, functional look about it, the figure on the hilt is indeed 'demonic' and seems more likely to be 'satanic' than the other two.......mind you....the figure looks familiar..............A Batman fantasy knife....afterall he did live in Gothic ....sorry, Gotham City


ADDED NOTE....the owl on the sheath is 'perched' on a 'cresent' or possibly a representation of The hill of Sion-Vaudémont, located 20 km south of Nancy, is the most important symbol of Lorrain patriotism. The hill has the shape of a horseshoe and is therefore considered as a good omen.

[Bill M]

Excellent post Katana! I am continually amazed by the depth of discussion here.

Glad that you are keeping it in the realm of ethnographic weapons, ie, the dagger(s).

Also that you examine in terms of historical and geographical context. Very important!

Good job!

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent Katana!!!!
Outstanding and fascinating information and very well presented. You are really adding some great dimension to material associated to these daggers and I am very much enjoying the historical data you are sharing.

Vandoo, some excellent perceptive ideas and observations, that really set us to thinking more on these daggers and the symbolism. I like your note on the possibility of such daggers with threaded screw on blades having alternative motif for varying occasions, interesting idea that recalls a number of edged weapon forms with interchangeable components.

It is interesting that secret societies, occultism and paganism, regarded as sinister and with suspicion , are parallelled in varying degree in the animism, folk religion and secret societies of ethnographic cultures that are regarded as significant in a generally more positive sense it seems in most cases. In that sense, it seems almost that these very esoteric weapons are in a fashion the ethnographica of our own culture .

The thread keeps getting better and better!!
I keep wanting more of this intriguing data and the interesting arcane weapons being posted. Thank you!

All best regards,
Jim

[spiral]

Originally Posted by katana

Intrigued by ‘Satanistic’ daggers I began investigating one of the daggers you have posted…..
i.e the 1871 Satanic knife brokered by Bernard Levine some years ago for $10,000.


On Bernard’s site the knife is stated as marked “ Fait a Nancy en 1871 par Florian ROYAL” this translates to “ Made in Nancy in 1871 for Royal Florian’ .

Seems strange that a ‘covert’ dagger would have where its made and whom for…clearly marked on it……

Historically, in 1871 ….

The Franco-Prussian War (July 19, 1870 – May 10, 1871) was declared by France on Prussia, which was backed by the North German Confederation and the south German states of Baden, Württemberg and Bavaria. The conflict marked the culmination of tension between the two powers following Prussia's rise to dominance in Germany, which before 1866 was still a loose federation of quasi-independent territories.

More info here (yes Spiral, Wikipedia again… …..there are many other references but this one is fairly concise )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Prussian_War


This war caused political and social upheaval….


1871-1918:
At the time of the French defeat of 1871, the German-speaking parts of the département of Meurthe and of the département of Moselle were merged to build one of the 3 districts of the Alsace-Lorraine Reichsland:


France lost Alsace-Lorraine in 1871, Nancy lost the arrondissements of Sarrebourg and Château-Salins which, having become German, were united with the Diocese of Metz. Nancy however annexed the arrondissement of Briey which remained French, and was detached from the Diocese of Metz (consistorial decrees of 10 and 14 July, 1874).


The annexation of a part of the French territory increased the importance of Nancy. As an out- post, situated near the border, it was a city full of barracks but, at the same time, it was a place of safety for a great number of industrialists who refused to adopt German nationality. The drift from the land also benefited the city since much housing had to be built.


Now we have a historical context to which we can use to view this knife and its possible ‘symbology’. Yes it has, at first glance demonic conertations, but I feel there are other possible explainations to the dagger’s decoration.



1. The skull and crossbones…….death, mortality

2. The sacred heart (on hilt)…. The Sacred Heart of Jesus is today one of the most recognizable symbols of the Catholic faith. The image originated in France near the end of the seventeenth century. The bishop of Marseille, Monseigneur de Belsunce, consecrated his diocese to the Sacred Heart in an effort to spare the region from plague. The plague passed over Marseille, and the symbol became very popular, associated with acts of charity and piety and used as a charm against plague.
3.The cross of Lorraine (small on hilt) …… In the XIXth century, the cross of Lorraine was included among the iconographical attributes of Joan of Arc, who was from Lorraine. After the incorporation of a great part of Lorraine to Germany following the 1870 war, the cross of Lorraine became a symbol of memory and resistance.
The hill of Sion-Vaudémont, located 20 km south of Nancy, is the most important symbol of Lorrain patriotism. The hill has the shape of a horseshoe and is therefore considered as a good omen. In the Middle-Ages, the hill was a place of prayer for the Crusaders, and received the name of Zion (in French, Sion). It is said that René de Vaudémont defeated Charles le Téméraire under the banner of Notre-Dame de Sion.
4. The Owl…….(as already discussed) In many parts of the world, owls have been associated with death and misfortune, likely due to their nocturnal activity and common screeching call. However, owls have also been associated with wisdom and prosperity as a result of frequently being companion animals for goddesses.
5. The Torch…… A torch, like a candle, represents life. A torch seen ablaze represents immortality, the everlasting life, and wisdom (like the lamp--a symbol of knowledge). Conversely, an inverted torch symbolizes death--a life extinguished. However, the inverted torch in this case….is still ablaze…..flames rising upward. (If it was put right way up the flames would be travelling downward ?) I believe that this translates to ‘not quite dead’ as if ready to spring to life when the opportunity arises……..ie the French beaten but the flames of resistance is very much alive
6. The crossed swords…… as symbol of armed force……being crossed could have religious conertations or as an idiom means to have a grevance or disagreement with. Perhaps with the torch symbol means ‘we (the French) maybe down……but are ready and waiting to defeat German rule…..
7. The demon/devil…….winged examples are usually shown as having membraneous wings (like a bat) as feathers are associated with angels. This Demon has the ‘framework’ for such wings but no membrane visible…..this suggests to me the demon is unable to fly and is therefore….somehow ‘disabled’.
Its arms are crossed…….seems to be waiting,….. or showing defiance ??
Its legs are entwined , it seems immobile, trapped………
We could summise, with the political/social problems at the time…..that this could be symbolic of the ‘evil intent’ or feeling against the Germans that at present, is not at ‘full strength’ and that the ‘beast’ is waiting for the opportunity to gather its power.

There are other demon/devil decoration on the Hilt, which I think could be just…..decoration……
Carvers of the earlier Romanesque period, especially in France, had produced more monsters and demons than any others in the whole history of Christian art, occupying prominent positions such as door heads, corbels and porches. Indeed, they occasionally outnumbered the Christian images, and their use was condemned by St Bernard of Clairvaux in the twelfth century. During the Gothic period they very gradually assumed minor positions, sinking at last to the level of mere parody. It has been observed that such carvings are almost antipathetic to Romanesque and Gothic architecture, and represent survivals of earlier pagan beliefs still dear to the people. The prominent place given to the demon in the picture is symbolic, as is its pairing with another satanic creature, the bat, which (like the owl) was singled out for unfavourable mention in the Old Testament. The devilish position of bats in European folklore is usually explained by their demonic faces and inverted life-style. (They live by night, appear to 'see' in the dark and hang upside down when they sleep.)

In conclusion, there is a distinct possibility that this knife, although beautifully made, is a ‘commemorative’ inspired knife, sure it has, what many would describe as satanistic decoration. But the facts and views above, cast serious doubt on this definitely being a ‘Satanic’ dagger.


The other dagger, that Spiral and I both posted......has a simple, functional look about it, the figure on the hilt is indeed 'demonic' and seems more likely to be 'satanic' than the other two.......mind you....the figure looks familiar..............A Batman fantasy knife....afterall he did live in Gothic ....sorry, Gotham City


ADDED NOTE....the owl on the sheath is 'perched' on a 'cresent' or possibly a representation of The hill of Sion-Vaudémont, located 20 km south of Nancy, is the most important symbol of Lorrain patriotism. The hill has the shape of a horseshoe and is therefore considered as a good omen.

Thanks Katana!

Indeed theres is tons of information by Bernard Levine one of the worlds leading authoritys on these daggers as well as other American & European knives & daggers.

Sadley I am not allowed to share it though. {rules are rules.}


The comments on the BRL satanic dagger are valid from photo shown but if you search a little more you can find many closeups & breakdowns of the analisis of that dagger , many of which you cant see in that photo.

Spiral

[David]

Originally Posted by spiral

Indeed theres is tons of information by Bernard Levine one of the worlds leading authoritys on these daggers as well as other American & European knives & daggers.
Sadley I am not allowed to share it though. {rules are rules.}

Spiral, i have followed the thread on Bernard Levine's forum discussion. At first he stated that he didn't think yours was one of what he calls "satanic daggers". He did finally come around to a "could be" after much discussion, but i saw nowhere where he difinitively stated he thought your knife was such a dagger. When someone tried to make a link to this forum's dicussion for a different perspective it was sqaushed. I am sorry that you are finding it difficult that people here don't agree with you.

"I did ask for actual evidence, sorry if that too academic a request, just to find someone on this forum with expierience of 19th century cast figural knives & or satanic gaggers doesnt strike me as particularily academic though."

Quite a bit of well researched factual evidence has been presented by various people in this thread. No, they do not have the distinction of being expert in the very specific field of 19th century figural cast & or satanic daggers, but that doesn't mean their answers hold no academic worth or that they can't be weighed against this case. Without actual provenence of the maker or original owner i am afraid we will never have a definitive answe as to theorigins of this knife. Even the one expert in this field whom you have named (but whose opinion you cannot speak) cannot and has not given you that definitive answer.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by David

Spiral, i have followed the thread on Bernard Levine's forum discussion. At first he stated that he didn't think yours was one of what he calls "satanic daggers". He did finally come around to a "could be" after much discussion, but i saw nowhere where he difinitively stated he thought your knife was such a dagger. When someone tried to make a link to this forum's dicussion for a different perspective it was sqaushed. I am sorry that you are finding it difficult that people here don't agree with you.

"I did ask for actual evidence, sorry if that too academic a request, just to find someone on this forum with expierience of 19th century cast figural knives & or satanic gaggers doesnt strike me as particularily academic though."

Quite a bit of well researched factual evidence has been presented by various people in this thread. No, they do not have the distinction of being expert in the very specific field of 19th century figural cast & or satanic daggers, but that doesn't mean their answers hold no academic worth or that they can't be weighed against this case. Without actual provenence of the maker or original owner i am afraid we will never have a definitive answe as to theorigins of this knife. Even the one expert in this field whom you have named (but whose opinion you cannot speak) cannot and has not given you that definitive answer.

My referance was to The BRL dagger, katana refered to.

Any quashing was by me, no one else.

I dont find it difficult that people dont agree with me, thats fine, I was just hoping to find more facts about cast figural handles daggers of the 19th century.

Spiral

[David]

Originally Posted by spiral

My referance was to The BRL dagger, katana refered to.

Any quashing was by me, no one else.

I dont find it difficult that people dont agree with me, thats fine, I was just hoping to find more facts about cast figural handles daggers of the 19th century.

Spiral

I never implied that anyone other than yourself did the quashing.
The daggers you are researching are no doubt a very specialized field. I wouldn't image there are too many other "experts" other than Levine. He could not definitively ID your dagger as one of these so-called "satanic" daggers, so i don't know who you think will.
Meanwhile the evidence presented here, while not definitive, has at least been academic, relative and deeply interesting and has presented an alternative to your theory through reasoning and critical analysis that is an extremely viable, and IMO likely answer to the origins of you dagger. What it seems you are really hoping for is only information that will verify your claims.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

I MUST ADMIT I AM A BIT SHY ABOUT GETTING INTO THIS AS I AM NOT AN EXPERT IN THIS TYPE OF ARTEFACT NOR HAVE I A LARGE COLLECTION OF THEM AND HAVE NOT CAREEFULLY RESEARCHED THE SUBJECT OF SATAN WORSHIP NOR PRACTICED IT. SO ANYTHING I SAY WILL BASED ON LOGIC AND MY PERSONEL OPINIONS SO I HOPE I DON'T WASTE ANYONES TIME , AND I HOPE I DON'T GET MY TAIL FEATHERS SCORCHED OFF

I HAVE SEEN AND HANDLED QUITE A FEW KNIVES OF THIS TYPE FROM THE EARLY 1960'S UNTIL THE LAST ONE IN THE 1990'S. THEY WERE AT GUN SHOWS AND WERE ALWAYS TOO HIGH PRICED FOR ME TO EVER OWN ONE BUT I ALWAYS ENJOYED LOOKING AT THE VARIETY AND EXCELLENT WORKMANSHIP. I DON'T REMBER EVER SEEING A EXAMPLE THAT SHOWED A LOT OF WEAR FROM USE ALTHOUGH THEY DID SHOW AGE AND A FEW HAD BEEN ABUSED BY SOME CHILD OR ADULT DOLT. I HAVE ONLY SEEN ONE EXAMPLE MISSING ITS SCABBARD THIS WOULD INDICATE TO ME THAT THE DAGGERS WERE USUALLY VERY WELL TAKEN CARE OF AND WERE VERY EXPENSIVE WHEN THEY WERE MADE AND DURING THE PERIOD OF THEIR USE. OFTEN THEY WERE DESCRIBED AS WITCHCRAFT DAGGERS OR ASSOCIATED WITH SECERET SOCIETYS.

I THINK THEY USUALLY WERE CUSTOM MADE OR TO SHOW OFF THE SKILL OF THE MAKERS AND REFLECTED THE CURRENT FASHONS OF THE SOCIETY AT THE TIME. I ALSO EXPECT THAT ONLY THE RICH OR WEALTHY PEOPLE BELONGING TO A SECERET SOCIETY COULD HAVE AFFORDED THEM. THERE WERE MANY SECRET SOCIETYS IN THE PAST IN MOST COUNTRYS SOME STILL EXHIST AND MANY DO NOT. THE SKULL SYMBOL IS OFTEN A REMINDER OF MANS MORTALITY AS WE ALL PONDER DEATH FROM TIME TO TIME. MOST OF THE OTHER SYMBOLS PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED ALSO HAVE SEVERAL WAYS OF INTREPETING THEM.
MANY OF THE THINGS SAID TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH SATAN WORSHIP WERE RELATED TO THE OLD IDEAS OF NATURE WORSHIP WHICH IS NOT SATANISM OR WITCHCRAFT BUT A REVERENCE FOR NATURE AND THE FORCE OR FORCES THAT CREATED EVERYTHING. IN THE PROCESS OF ONE RELIGION DISPOSING OF A OLDER LOCAL RELIGION ALL SUCH BELIEFS AND THEIR SYMBOLS WERE SAID TO BE OF THE DEVIL AND FEARSOME EXAMPLES WERE MADE OF PEOPLE TO TRY AND STAMP OUT SUCH PRACTICES.
MANY SECRET SOCIETYS EVOLVED FROM THIS AND BEING SECRET I AM SURE THEY HAD SECRET SIGNS AND MEETINGS SO IF HISTORY NOTES THEM AT ALL IT WILL BE FROM THE VIEWS OF THOSE WHO FIND AND DESTROY THEM. IF THEY BELONGED TO SUCH A SOCIETY AND IT IS STILL IN EXHISTANCE I DOUBT THAT THE KNIFE WOULD HAVE BEEN SOLD UNLESS A THIEF TOOK IT.
PERHAPS THERE ARE THOSE WHO WORSHIP SATAN AND HOPE TO GAIN WEALTH AND POWER THRU IT BUT I WOULD THINK THEY WOULD BE FAR AND FEW IN BETWEEN THROUGHT HISTORY. MANY OF THE THINGS YOU READ ABOUT BLACK MASSES, HUMAN SACRIFICE, SUMMONING DEAMONS , VAMPIRES, DRAGONS AND ORGES ARE BASED ON OLD TALES, BOOKS, MOVIES AND SUCH. SOME CHOOSE TO BELIEVE IN THESE STORYS AND TRY TO BECOME A MASTER OF THE BLACK ARTS OR A WICKED WITCH AND MAY DO SOME TERRIBLE SECRET THINGS AND BECOME FEARED AS A DEAMON IN HUMAN FORM. THIS IS THEIR DOING BUT I FEEL THEY DON'T GET ANY REAL POWER FROM IT AND IT IS A FORM OF ROLE PLAYING GAME. THE DEVIL WILL OF COURSE TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS FOR HIS OWN ENDS BUT IS A FRIEND TO NO MAN.

FIGURES FROM GREEK, ROMAN, EGYPTIAN AND OTHER TIMES AND COUNTRYS HAVE BECOME THE FASHON IN ART THROUGHOUT HISTORY. PERHAPS THE INDIVIDUAL WHO BOUGHT OR ORDERED THE DAGGER MADE WOULD KNOW WHAT ALL THE SYMBOLS STOOD FOR, PERHAPS NOT. A SECRET SOCIETY WOULD KNOW WHAT THE SYMBOLS STOOD FOR AND THEY WOULD BE A PART OF THEIR CREDO.
I WOULD THINK THAT ONE WHO PRACTEDED THE BLACK ARTS WOULD HAVE SOME PROTECTIVE SPELLS AND DEADLY CURSES INCORPORATED INTO THE DESIGNS UNLESS CURSES AND SPELLS CAN ONLY BE SPOKEN.? BUT I DON'T SEE WHY THEY WOULD HAVE RELIGIOUS SYMBOLS OF THE CHURCH AND SUCH ON A IMPLEMENT THEY PLANNED TO USE TO DESICRATE THE CHURCH AND RELIGION.

SOME POSSIBILITYS FOR THE ORIGINAL DAGGER WOULD BE
1. ONE OR MORE EXAMPLES WERE MADE TO BE PRESENTED AS GIFTS TO SOME IMPORTANT PERSON. PERHAPS VICTOR HUGO HIMSELF? IF YOU COULD PROVE THAT IT WOULD BE WORTH MORE THAN A MERE SATANIC DAGGER

2. AN ARTIST LIKED THE BOOK AND WAS INSPIRED TO MAKE THE KNIFE OR SOMEONE ELSE COMMISIONED IT AS HE WAS A FAN OF VICTOR HUGO.

3. THE VICTOR HUGO FAN CLUB HAD THEM MADE IN THE THOUSANDS FOR ALL MEMBERS OR NOT

I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY OF THESE DAGGERS TAKEN APART BEFORE AND WONDER IF VERY MANY KNIVES WERE MADE WITH THE DETACHABLE BLADE AND IF IT MIGHT HAVE HAD MULTIPLE BLADES FOR DIFFERENT USES?

MY GUT FEELING ABOUT THIS TYPE OF KNIFE IS THAT IT WAS NOT MADE FOR USE BY THOSE WHO WORSHIP SATAN. BUT IN THE YEARS SINCE ITS CREATION WHO KNOWS WHO HAS HAD IT OR WHAT THEY HAVE USED IT FOR. AS THEY HAVE BEEN SOLD AS DAGGERS RELATED TO WITCHCRAFT, ECT. AT LEAST SINCE THE EARLY 1960'S.

SORRY I CAN'T LAY ALL THE INFORMATION OF THE TYPE AND THE HISTORY ON YOU . BUT REGARDLESS OF WHAT IT IS ITS A REAL SWEET DAGGER AND IT HAS BEEN A VERY INTERESTING DISCUSSION.

PS. THE SWASTKA IS ALSO AN ANCIANT SYMBOL USED BY SOME OF THE AMERICAN INDIAN TRIBES, A VERY OLD SYMBOL BUT NOTHING EVIL ABOUT IT.

Thankyou Vandoo for your thoughtfull & informitave input. Particularily regarding thier more recent history.

Spiral

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I think the most interesting factor in this thread is that somewhat specious assessment or perception of an unusually decorated dagger from the original post evolved into some fascinating discussion and posts concerning some extremely esoteric material. Subsequent review and presentation of developing opinions and some very well supported ideas led to very plausible solutions to the meaning of the unusual motif. I also think that for the most part the members have maintained outstanding control despite some unfortunately barbed comments that were entirely unnecessary.

Many of these, however, in my 'opinion' were perhaps wry, misguided attempts at humor? that perhaps arose from either misinterpretation or perception of comments that appear to derive from flawed linguistic syntax or misspelled words. As has been noted, written communication typically lacks necessary sensitivity, and often transliteration completely inhibits delivery in the case of humor.

In the instance of Spiral reemphasizing my own faux pas in expressing an unsupported observation concerning the viewing of scabbards, despite the manner in which he expressed his comments, I presume that he did not intend to sound insulting. Actually it was a good reminder that one cannot be too careful in making statements in friendly discussion, even if you carefully qualify your comment. It is important to remember that the comments you make, regardless of how well qualified, are not necessarily well interpreted by those who read them.

This thread has been extremely informative, and I have very much enjoyed the posts and discussion, though of course, inconclusive. I think we have all learned quite a lot about these theme daggers as well as on the elusive daggers of occult regalia. The topic has proven, as may be expected, extremely difficult, as it does not lend itself well to the expectations of those who adhere closely to restrictive academic perameters regardless of the character of the discussion at hand.

In all, a very exhilerating thread!

All best regards,
Jim

Thankyou Jim,, My error perhaps but your statements & judgments in friendly discusians always sounds like prounocmemts of authority......

A great skill indeed.Many teachers have it.

I do need to point out though that I didnt reemphasise your "faux paus" Wolveix did... I just ansered his comment.

I did ask for actual evidence, sorry if that too academic a request, just to find someone on this forum with expierience of 19th century cast figural knives & or satanic gaggers doesnt strike me as particularily academic though.

Spiral