Satanic dagger, Age & country of Origin?

spiral · 11th January 2007, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolviex

I understand we all disagree with Spiral on the field of interpretation of the meaning of this dagger.

SCABBARD: is exceptional indeed beacuse most of the scabbards are oriented downside, indeed. There are some scabbards oriented also horizontally (few examples), and as Jim, I have also seen somewhere scabbards like yours. Like David I won't change my mind this is just like it should be, because:

- this is the only way you can make church in proper proportions
- I still think it is artistic project. Until the upturned churches aren't symbol of satanism or occultism, there is no point to search one here.
- CROSSES aren't upside down - when you look on the church everything looks fine. Turning scabbard doesn't change anything. Why? Because it is stupid idea. I'll return to crosses on the blades. You can turn the blade and say the cross is upside-down too

. No sense!
- The idea with lady triumph under the church, or being a symbol under the collapse church doesn't work here. If it would, this scabbard would be very poor artistic project (I don't say it is unique and glamorous work either). Anyway, in the picture of the church there is nothing what would suggest it is turned, collapsed or anything wrong with it.
- You all made great work bringing the history with Esmeralda which just fit here. Iconography seems to be enough for the proof. Church on the scabbard doesn't have to looks like Notre Dame in all details to be Notre Dame. The work is rather scetchy in details. And hardly ever you can see something identical with archetype when you're moving around symbolism and known legends. For example, in my city of Krakow there is a tradition of making Christ sheds models on Christmas time, where the shed is always situated in main Krakow's church, which is St.Marys church. Well, hardly ever this is exact the imagination of this church, while it is very characteristical. You won't find two identical models, but everybody knows how this main church looks like!

On the other hand all the knives you presented here as 'satanistic' are full of evil images, but I can see non of such on this dagger. Nice lady with loving animal, and well, there are some grim faces on the hilt, but there are many such mascarons in the art through the centuries. I never thought about hussar armour with evil-looking like mascaron on it, as of a product of occultism!

For me, well it is my interpretation, this dagger is nothing but nice Romantic knife from 19th century - century where legends, neogothic, neorenaissance, horror literature which bloomed then, made people to think in other directions, and inspired also the weapons and other arts too. You could buy many strange souvenirs then.

The idea of using 'very special dagger', and non other but with images of evil by any occult group is under the discussion too. If I would like to sacrifice anything I would use butcher's knife instead of a toy, as more reliable. The idea of using highly decorated knives seems to be more Hollywood thinking, of course characteristical for some rich princes, barons or noblemen who wanted to make real show of their 'occultism' or just make real fun of it - sometimes with pseudo occultism manners anyway! Most stories about satanism murderes are mentioning (if i remember well) about simple kitchen knives used during the process.

Here is another figural knife, made in the same period - 2nd half of the 19th c. or maybe even at the end of the century. And no - it wasn't a knife made especially for killing wives or unfaithul lovers

Thankyou for your opinions, the leaders of French,German & indeed English satanic groups in the 19th century were generaly from the aristocracy.

Excelent figural knife you show which despite your opinions yet again clearly shows & adds further empirical evidence to my stated point that the cast figural handel daggers of the 19th century are veiwed in the upright position to study the scabbard.

Thankyou for bieng unbiased enough to share the photos to support my case even if they fly in the face of your opinions.

Spiral

wolviex · 11th January 2007, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Excelent figural knife you show which despite your opinions yet again clearly shows & adds further empirical evidence to my stated point that the cast figural handel daggers of the 19th century are veiwed in the upright position to study the scabbard.

Thankyou for bieng unbiased enough to share the photos to support my case even if they fly in the face of your opinions.

Quite the contrary
I think you should reread my post and you'll find that I admited your dagger is quite unique because of the scabbard, but aswell as Jim I have seen somewhere something like this before, so it's not the only one.

And again, IMHO, your turned scabbard means nothing here, as we all claim here.

Emanuel · 11th January 2007, 08:50 PM

What says that the right way to hold the dagger and scabbard is not the other way around so the church is right side up and the satanic priestess is upside down? In which case it would be the church triumphing over paganism, satanism and the like.

So far no one has presented an overturned church (spires, portals crosses and all) and this is the first time I see architectural features portrayed on a scabbard. Interesting it would be to find precedent for architectural depictions and see how they are done. If a castle were shown in the manner of this church, would the dagger indicate a political movement/rebellion? Architectural depiction usually has the problem of having to fit the shape of the space it occupies. A triangular building in a triangular shape will most times prescribe only one way to arrange it.

I think the "right way to hold the scabbard" is too ambiguous in some cases. If there were separate symbols following one alignment and one were overturned, then a case could be made. But when there is only one apparant symbol, what is there to indicate the "right side up"? Looking at examples from different places won't help either IMO. Maybe a German will look at it this way, a Frenchman that way, a Brit another and a Spaniard yet another...the Italian will laugh at them and show the right way

Emanuel

Emanuel · 11th January 2007, 08:57 PM

I think that stylistically and thematically, the dagger and scabbard must be able to function separately. The hilt can tell its own story and in the cases so far, so can the scabbard. There is something happening on the scabbard that tells something. In the case of your dagger Spiral, there is only a perfectly normal church. On its own there is nothing wrong with it. Do any other cult daggers function this way?

The way you hold it is irrelevant, the satanaic symbol must be legible in the context of the other symbols occupying the same space as it. If the crosses on the church were upside down, then again a convincing case could be made. But as it stands, the church has nothing wrong...
Emanuel

spiral · 11th January 2007, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

What says that the right way to hold the dagger and scabbard is not the other way around so the church is right side up and the satanic priestess is upside down? In which case it would be the church triumphing over paganism, satanism and the like.

So far no one has presented an overturned church (spires, portals crosses and all) and this is the first time I see architectural features portrayed on a scabbard. Interesting it would be to find precedent for architectural depictions and see how they are done. If a castle were shown in the manner of this church, would the dagger indicate a political movement/rebellion? Architectural depiction usually has the problem of having to fit the shape of the space it occupies. A triangular building in a triangular shape will most times prescribe only one way to arrange it.

I think the "right way to hold the scabbard" is too ambiguous in some cases. If there were separate symbols following one alignment and one were overturned, then a case could be made. But when there is only one apparant symbol, what is there to indicate the "right side up"? Looking at examples from different places won't help either IMO. Maybe a German will look at it this way, a Frenchman that way, a Brit another and a Spaniard yet another...the Italian will laugh at them and show the right way

Emanuel

Empircal evidence shown by me , so far demonstrates that European figural knives of the 19th century are veiwed handle upright.

Satanic black masses are about inverting the Christian mass, even the words are recounted backwards. this is well recorded.

Spiral

katana · 11th January 2007, 09:01 PM

Symbology.....is a very demanding subject, the meanings dependant on race, religion, time period. Many symbols often have several meanings.....some diametrically opposed !!!!

For Instance if you saw this symbol.....what would you think ?....what would you feel ? Once you have 'organised your thoughts' click on the link....

http://www.hostultra.com/~Exidor/Swastika/Swastika.html

Tim Simmons · 11th January 2007, 09:14 PM

To my mind this thread stopped making any sense a while back. I for one will not be toyed with acerbic abnegation any further.

Andrew · 11th January 2007, 09:58 PM

It must be a full moon...

Everyone take a breath and relax, please. There's nothing worth getting upset with each other over here. Let's also keep in mind that internet discussion boards are, at best, an imperfect communication medium.

Factor in cultural and language differences and, well, you know.

spiral · 11th January 2007, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

It must be a full moon...

Everyone take a breath and relax, please. There's nothing worth getting upset with each other over here. Let's also keep in mind that internet discussion boards are, at best, an imperfect communication medium.

Factor in cultural and language differences and, well, you know.

Thankyou Andrew, I hope nobody takes any of this too deeply, it is just my quest to find someone with some actual expieriance or empirical evidence of these cast, 19th century european daggers.

I live in hope. or as satanists say.

"The devill made me do it"

Spiral

spiral · 11th January 2007, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

To my mind this thread stopped making any sense a while back. I for one will not be toyed with acerbic abnegation any further.

I respect your descion.

In life I try to communicte & indeed deal with each individul in the manner or type of speach or attitiude shown to me.

This can assist some founding freindships & destroy jobs. {"supierors" dont always like it.}

Always tricker via internet as we already know.

Easier in a pub with a pint.

Take care,

Spiral

Jim McDougall · 12th January 2007, 12:50 AM

I think the most interesting factor in this thread is that somewhat specious assessment or perception of an unusually decorated dagger from the original post evolved into some fascinating discussion and posts concerning some extremely esoteric material. Subsequent review and presentation of developing opinions and some very well supported ideas led to very plausible solutions to the meaning of the unusual motif. I also think that for the most part the members have maintained outstanding control despite some unfortunately barbed comments that were entirely unnecessary.

Many of these, however, in my 'opinion' were perhaps wry, misguided attempts at humor? that perhaps arose from either misinterpretation or perception of comments that appear to derive from flawed linguistic syntax or misspelled words. As has been noted, written communication typically lacks necessary sensitivity, and often transliteration completely inhibits delivery in the case of humor.

In the instance of Spiral reemphasizing my own faux pas in expressing an unsupported observation concerning the viewing of scabbards, despite the manner in which he expressed his comments, I presume that he did not intend to sound insulting. Actually it was a good reminder that one cannot be too careful in making statements in friendly discussion, even if you carefully qualify your comment. It is important to remember that the comments you make, regardless of how well qualified, are not necessarily well interpreted by those who read them.

This thread has been extremely informative, and I have very much enjoyed the posts and discussion, though of course, inconclusive. I think we have all learned quite a lot about these theme daggers as well as on the elusive daggers of occult regalia. The topic has proven, as may be expected, extremely difficult, as it does not lend itself well to the expectations of those who adhere closely to restrictive academic perameters regardless of the character of the discussion at hand.

In all, a very exhilerating thread!

All best regards,
Jim

VANDOO · 12th January 2007, 06:13 AM

I MUST ADMIT I AM A BIT SHY ABOUT GETTING INTO THIS AS I AM NOT AN EXPERT IN THIS TYPE OF ARTEFACT NOR HAVE I A LARGE COLLECTION OF THEM AND HAVE NOT CAREEFULLY RESEARCHED THE SUBJECT OF SATAN WORSHIP NOR PRACTICED IT. SO ANYTHING I SAY WILL BASED ON LOGIC AND MY PERSONEL OPINIONS SO I HOPE I DON'T WASTE ANYONES TIME , AND I HOPE I DON'T GET MY TAIL FEATHERS SCORCHED OFF

I HAVE SEEN AND HANDLED QUITE A FEW KNIVES OF THIS TYPE FROM THE EARLY 1960'S UNTIL THE LAST ONE IN THE 1990'S. THEY WERE AT GUN SHOWS AND WERE ALWAYS TOO HIGH PRICED FOR ME TO EVER OWN ONE BUT I ALWAYS ENJOYED LOOKING AT THE VARIETY AND EXCELLENT WORKMANSHIP. I DON'T REMBER EVER SEEING A EXAMPLE THAT SHOWED A LOT OF WEAR FROM USE ALTHOUGH THEY DID SHOW AGE AND A FEW HAD BEEN ABUSED BY SOME CHILD OR ADULT DOLT. I HAVE ONLY SEEN ONE EXAMPLE MISSING ITS SCABBARD THIS WOULD INDICATE TO ME THAT THE DAGGERS WERE USUALLY VERY WELL TAKEN CARE OF AND WERE VERY EXPENSIVE WHEN THEY WERE MADE AND DURING THE PERIOD OF THEIR USE. OFTEN THEY WERE DESCRIBED AS WITCHCRAFT DAGGERS OR ASSOCIATED WITH SECERET SOCIETYS.

I THINK THEY USUALLY WERE CUSTOM MADE OR TO SHOW OFF THE SKILL OF THE MAKERS AND REFLECTED THE CURRENT FASHONS OF THE SOCIETY AT THE TIME. I ALSO EXPECT THAT ONLY THE RICH OR WEALTHY PEOPLE BELONGING TO A SECERET SOCIETY COULD HAVE AFFORDED THEM. THERE WERE MANY SECRET SOCIETYS IN THE PAST IN MOST COUNTRYS SOME STILL EXHIST AND MANY DO NOT. THE SKULL SYMBOL IS OFTEN A REMINDER OF MANS MORTALITY AS WE ALL PONDER DEATH FROM TIME TO TIME. MOST OF THE OTHER SYMBOLS PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED ALSO HAVE SEVERAL WAYS OF INTREPETING THEM.
MANY OF THE THINGS SAID TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH SATAN WORSHIP WERE RELATED TO THE OLD IDEAS OF NATURE WORSHIP WHICH IS NOT SATANISM OR WITCHCRAFT BUT A REVERENCE FOR NATURE AND THE FORCE OR FORCES THAT CREATED EVERYTHING. IN THE PROCESS OF ONE RELIGION DISPOSING OF A OLDER LOCAL RELIGION ALL SUCH BELIEFS AND THEIR SYMBOLS WERE SAID TO BE OF THE DEVIL AND FEARSOME EXAMPLES WERE MADE OF PEOPLE TO TRY AND STAMP OUT SUCH PRACTICES.
MANY SECRET SOCIETYS EVOLVED FROM THIS AND BEING SECRET I AM SURE THEY HAD SECRET SIGNS AND MEETINGS SO IF HISTORY NOTES THEM AT ALL IT WILL BE FROM THE VIEWS OF THOSE WHO FIND AND DESTROY THEM. IF THEY BELONGED TO SUCH A SOCIETY AND IT IS STILL IN EXHISTANCE I DOUBT THAT THE KNIFE WOULD HAVE BEEN SOLD UNLESS A THIEF TOOK IT.
PERHAPS THERE ARE THOSE WHO WORSHIP SATAN AND HOPE TO GAIN WEALTH AND POWER THRU IT BUT I WOULD THINK THEY WOULD BE FAR AND FEW IN BETWEEN THROUGHT HISTORY. MANY OF THE THINGS YOU READ ABOUT BLACK MASSES, HUMAN SACRIFICE, SUMMONING DEAMONS , VAMPIRES, DRAGONS AND ORGES ARE BASED ON OLD TALES, BOOKS, MOVIES AND SUCH. SOME CHOOSE TO BELIEVE IN THESE STORYS AND TRY TO BECOME A MASTER OF THE BLACK ARTS OR A WICKED WITCH AND MAY DO SOME TERRIBLE SECRET THINGS AND BECOME FEARED AS A DEAMON IN HUMAN FORM. THIS IS THEIR DOING BUT I FEEL THEY DON'T GET ANY REAL POWER FROM IT AND IT IS A FORM OF ROLE PLAYING GAME. THE DEVIL WILL OF COURSE TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS FOR HIS OWN ENDS BUT IS A FRIEND TO NO MAN.

FIGURES FROM GREEK, ROMAN, EGYPTIAN AND OTHER TIMES AND COUNTRYS HAVE BECOME THE FASHON IN ART THROUGHOUT HISTORY. PERHAPS THE INDIVIDUAL WHO BOUGHT OR ORDERED THE DAGGER MADE WOULD KNOW WHAT ALL THE SYMBOLS STOOD FOR, PERHAPS NOT. A SECRET SOCIETY WOULD KNOW WHAT THE SYMBOLS STOOD FOR AND THEY WOULD BE A PART OF THEIR CREDO.
I WOULD THINK THAT ONE WHO PRACTEDED THE BLACK ARTS WOULD HAVE SOME PROTECTIVE SPELLS AND DEADLY CURSES INCORPORATED INTO THE DESIGNS UNLESS CURSES AND SPELLS CAN ONLY BE SPOKEN.? BUT I DON'T SEE WHY THEY WOULD HAVE RELIGIOUS SYMBOLS OF THE CHURCH AND SUCH ON A IMPLEMENT THEY PLANNED TO USE TO DESICRATE THE CHURCH AND RELIGION.

SOME POSSIBILITYS FOR THE ORIGINAL DAGGER WOULD BE
1. ONE OR MORE EXAMPLES WERE MADE TO BE PRESENTED AS GIFTS TO SOME IMPORTANT PERSON. PERHAPS VICTOR HUGO HIMSELF? IF YOU COULD PROVE THAT IT WOULD BE WORTH MORE THAN A MERE SATANIC DAGGER

2. AN ARTIST LIKED THE BOOK AND WAS INSPIRED TO MAKE THE KNIFE OR SOMEONE ELSE COMMISIONED IT AS HE WAS A FAN OF VICTOR HUGO.

3. THE VICTOR HUGO FAN CLUB HAD THEM MADE IN THE THOUSANDS FOR ALL MEMBERS

OR NOT

I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY OF THESE DAGGERS TAKEN APART BEFORE AND WONDER IF VERY MANY KNIVES WERE MADE WITH THE DETACHABLE BLADE AND IF IT MIGHT HAVE HAD MULTIPLE BLADES FOR DIFFERENT USES?

MY GUT FEELING ABOUT THIS TYPE OF KNIFE IS THAT IT WAS NOT MADE FOR USE BY THOSE WHO WORSHIP SATAN. BUT IN THE YEARS SINCE ITS CREATION WHO KNOWS WHO HAS HAD IT OR WHAT THEY HAVE USED IT FOR. AS THEY HAVE BEEN SOLD AS DAGGERS RELATED TO WITCHCRAFT, ECT. AT LEAST SINCE THE EARLY 1960'S.

SORRY I CAN'T LAY ALL THE INFORMATION OF THE TYPE AND THE HISTORY ON YOU . BUT REGARDLESS OF WHAT IT IS ITS A REAL SWEET DAGGER AND IT HAS BEEN A VERY INTERESTING DISCUSSION.

PS. THE SWASTKA IS ALSO AN ANCIANT SYMBOL USED BY SOME OF THE AMERICAN INDIAN TRIBES, A VERY OLD SYMBOL BUT NOTHING EVIL ABOUT IT.

spiral · 13th January 2007, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I think the most interesting factor in this thread is that somewhat specious assessment or perception of an unusually decorated dagger from the original post evolved into some fascinating discussion and posts concerning some extremely esoteric material. Subsequent review and presentation of developing opinions and some very well supported ideas led to very plausible solutions to the meaning of the unusual motif. I also think that for the most part the members have maintained outstanding control despite some unfortunately barbed comments that were entirely unnecessary.

Many of these, however, in my 'opinion' were perhaps wry, misguided attempts at humor? that perhaps arose from either misinterpretation or perception of comments that appear to derive from flawed linguistic syntax or misspelled words. As has been noted, written communication typically lacks necessary sensitivity, and often transliteration completely inhibits delivery in the case of humor.

In the instance of Spiral reemphasizing my own faux pas in expressing an unsupported observation concerning the viewing of scabbards, despite the manner in which he expressed his comments, I presume that he did not intend to sound insulting. Actually it was a good reminder that one cannot be too careful in making statements in friendly discussion, even if you carefully qualify your comment. It is important to remember that the comments you make, regardless of how well qualified, are not necessarily well interpreted by those who read them.

This thread has been extremely informative, and I have very much enjoyed the posts and discussion, though of course, inconclusive. I think we have all learned quite a lot about these theme daggers as well as on the elusive daggers of occult regalia. The topic has proven, as may be expected, extremely difficult, as it does not lend itself well to the expectations of those who adhere closely to restrictive academic perameters regardless of the character of the discussion at hand.

In all, a very exhilerating thread!

All best regards,
Jim

Thankyou Jim,, My error perhaps but your statements & judgments in friendly discusians always sounds like prounocmemts of authority......

A great skill indeed.Many teachers have it.

I do need to point out though that I didnt reemphasise your "faux paus" Wolveix did... I just ansered his comment.

I did ask for actual evidence, sorry if that too academic a request, just to find someone on this forum with expierience of 19th century cast figural knives & or satanic gaggers doesnt strike me as particularily academic though.

Spiral

spiral · 11th January 2007, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Symbology.....is a very demanding subject, the meanings dependant on race, religion, time period. Many symbols often have several meanings.....some diametrically opposed !!!!

For Instance if you saw this symbol.....what would you think ?....what would you feel ? Once you have 'organised your thoughts' click on the link....

http://www.hostultra.com/~Exidor/Swastika/Swastika.html

Well I thought of thice piece {the central one, {old photo I had handy

.}

But then I am intrested in symbolism.

As its neither European, 19th century, nor has a cast handle the evidence of this piece in how to look at the scabbard is worthless in this discusian though.

It looks like your learning though if you apply the same concepts to the dagger featured , what conclusians do you then reach?

Spiral

katana · 11th January 2007, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Well I thought of thice piece {the central one, {old photo I had handy

.}
But then I am intrested in symbolism.

As its neither European, 19th century, nor has a cast handle the evidence of this piece in how to look at the scabbard is worthless in this discusian though.

It looks like your learning though if you apply the same concepts to the dagger featured , what conclusians do you then reach?

Spiral

Hi Spiral,
the Swastika 'question' was aimed at the 'audience' .....to demonstrate how symbolism can be mis-interpreted .......not you specifically...I should have made that clearer.

Bill M · 11th January 2007, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Spiral,
the Swastika 'question' was aimed at the 'audience' .....to demonstrate how symbolism can be mis-interpreted .......not you specifically...I should have made that clearer.

As I understand it the swastica was a Tibetan symbol, long before Adolph H. came on the scene. It typically depicts a wheel turning in a life enhancing clockwise direction with sparks flying off.

Hitler was accused of using this symbol turning in a counter-clockwise direction meaning anti-life. While this is possible, Tibetans used it both ways, though usual was clockwise.

There was some speculation that Hitler's power, and his charisma was VERY powerful, was enhanced by teachings by G. I. Gurdjieff who studied in Tibet and that the swastica was one of his power symbols.

Also red, black and white are the common three colors used in many animistic societies indicating the High Kingdom (White) the earth plane (red) and the lower world (black - sometimes blue, but usually black).

My point is again that symbolism both a cultural and personal. Depending on your point of view.

Still there is something that reaches a universal depth. Karl Jung had some interesting ideas there, but this is not the Forum for me to continue these musings........

Missed katana's link before. Good stuff there. [reason to edit]

spiral · 11th January 2007, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolviex

Quite the contrary
I think you should reread my post and you'll find that I admited your dagger is quite unique because of the scabbard, but aswell as Jim I have seen somewhere something like this before, so it's not the only one.

And again, IMHO, your turned scabbard means nothing here, as we all claim here.

I understood your post.

I have to ignore you "evidence" though whether yours or Jims as possibly incorrect.

After all niether of you can even remeber where you saw it. So that leaves room for error as perhaps you cant remeber quite exactly correctly what you have seen before.

If you ever remeber it please post here or PM me if its in a few years time. I always appreciate evidence.

Thankyou.

Spiral

11th January 2007, 08:50 PM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	A thought What says that the right way to hold the dagger and scabbard is not the other way around so the church is right side up and the satanic priestess is upside down? In which case it would be the church triumphing over paganism, satanism and the like. So far no one has presented an overturned church (spires, portals crosses and all) and this is the first time I see architectural features portrayed on a scabbard. Interesting it would be to find precedent for architectural depictions and see how they are done. If a castle were shown in the manner of this church, would the dagger indicate a political movement/rebellion? Architectural depiction usually has the problem of having to fit the shape of the space it occupies. A triangular building in a triangular shape will most times prescribe only one way to arrange it. I think the "right way to hold the scabbard" is too ambiguous in some cases. If there were separate symbols following one alignment and one were overturned, then a case could be made. But when there is only one apparant symbol, what is there to indicate the "right side up"? Looking at examples from different places won't help either IMO. Maybe a German will look at it this way, a Frenchman that way, a Brit another and a Spaniard yet another...the Italian will laugh at them and show the right way Emanuel

11th January 2007, 08:57 PM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Another one... I think that stylistically and thematically, the dagger and scabbard must be able to function separately. The hilt can tell its own story and in the cases so far, so can the scabbard. There is something happening on the scabbard that tells something. In the case of your dagger Spiral, there is only a perfectly normal church. On its own there is nothing wrong with it. Do any other cult daggers function this way? The way you hold it is irrelevant, the satanaic symbol must be legible in the context of the other symbols occupying the same space as it. If the crosses on the church were upside down, then again a convincing case could be made. But as it stands, the church has nothing wrong... Emanuel

11th January 2007, 09:01 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Symbology.....is a very demanding subject, the meanings dependant on race, religion, time period. Many symbols often have several meanings.....some diametrically opposed !!!! For Instance if you saw this symbol.....what would you think ?....what would you feel ? Once you have 'organised your thoughts' click on the link.... http://www.hostultra.com/~Exidor/Swastika/Swastika.html Attached Images

12th January 2007, 12:50 AM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,458	I think the most interesting factor in this thread is that somewhat specious assessment or perception of an unusually decorated dagger from the original post evolved into some fascinating discussion and posts concerning some extremely esoteric material. Subsequent review and presentation of developing opinions and some very well supported ideas led to very plausible solutions to the meaning of the unusual motif. I also think that for the most part the members have maintained outstanding control despite some unfortunately barbed comments that were entirely unnecessary. Many of these, however, in my 'opinion' were perhaps wry, misguided attempts at humor? that perhaps arose from either misinterpretation or perception of comments that appear to derive from flawed linguistic syntax or misspelled words. As has been noted, written communication typically lacks necessary sensitivity, and often transliteration completely inhibits delivery in the case of humor. In the instance of Spiral reemphasizing my own faux pas in expressing an unsupported observation concerning the viewing of scabbards, despite the manner in which he expressed his comments, I presume that he did not intend to sound insulting. Actually it was a good reminder that one cannot be too careful in making statements in friendly discussion, even if you carefully qualify your comment. It is important to remember that the comments you make, regardless of how well qualified, are not necessarily well interpreted by those who read them. This thread has been extremely informative, and I have very much enjoyed the posts and discussion, though of course, inconclusive. I think we have all learned quite a lot about these theme daggers as well as on the elusive daggers of occult regalia. The topic has proven, as may be expected, extremely difficult, as it does not lend itself well to the expectations of those who adhere closely to restrictive academic perameters regardless of the character of the discussion at hand. In all, a very exhilerating thread! All best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 12th January 2007 at 03:46 AM.

11th January 2007, 09:14 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	To my mind this thread stopped making any sense a while back. I for one will not be toyed with acerbic abnegation any further.

11th January 2007, 09:58 PM	#8
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	It must be a full moon... Everyone take a breath and relax, please. There's nothing worth getting upset with each other over here. Let's also keep in mind that internet discussion boards are, at best, an imperfect communication medium. Factor in cultural and language differences and, well, you know.

12th January 2007, 06:13 AM	#12
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I MUST ADMIT I AM A BIT SHY ABOUT GETTING INTO THIS AS I AM NOT AN EXPERT IN THIS TYPE OF ARTEFACT NOR HAVE I A LARGE COLLECTION OF THEM AND HAVE NOT CAREEFULLY RESEARCHED THE SUBJECT OF SATAN WORSHIP NOR PRACTICED IT. SO ANYTHING I SAY WILL BASED ON LOGIC AND MY PERSONEL OPINIONS SO I HOPE I DON'T WASTE ANYONES TIME , AND I HOPE I DON'T GET MY TAIL FEATHERS SCORCHED OFF I HAVE SEEN AND HANDLED QUITE A FEW KNIVES OF THIS TYPE FROM THE EARLY 1960'S UNTIL THE LAST ONE IN THE 1990'S. THEY WERE AT GUN SHOWS AND WERE ALWAYS TOO HIGH PRICED FOR ME TO EVER OWN ONE BUT I ALWAYS ENJOYED LOOKING AT THE VARIETY AND EXCELLENT WORKMANSHIP. I DON'T REMBER EVER SEEING A EXAMPLE THAT SHOWED A LOT OF WEAR FROM USE ALTHOUGH THEY DID SHOW AGE AND A FEW HAD BEEN ABUSED BY SOME CHILD OR ADULT DOLT. I HAVE ONLY SEEN ONE EXAMPLE MISSING ITS SCABBARD THIS WOULD INDICATE TO ME THAT THE DAGGERS WERE USUALLY VERY WELL TAKEN CARE OF AND WERE VERY EXPENSIVE WHEN THEY WERE MADE AND DURING THE PERIOD OF THEIR USE. OFTEN THEY WERE DESCRIBED AS WITCHCRAFT DAGGERS OR ASSOCIATED WITH SECERET SOCIETYS. I THINK THEY USUALLY WERE CUSTOM MADE OR TO SHOW OFF THE SKILL OF THE MAKERS AND REFLECTED THE CURRENT FASHONS OF THE SOCIETY AT THE TIME. I ALSO EXPECT THAT ONLY THE RICH OR WEALTHY PEOPLE BELONGING TO A SECERET SOCIETY COULD HAVE AFFORDED THEM. THERE WERE MANY SECRET SOCIETYS IN THE PAST IN MOST COUNTRYS SOME STILL EXHIST AND MANY DO NOT. THE SKULL SYMBOL IS OFTEN A REMINDER OF MANS MORTALITY AS WE ALL PONDER DEATH FROM TIME TO TIME. MOST OF THE OTHER SYMBOLS PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED ALSO HAVE SEVERAL WAYS OF INTREPETING THEM. MANY OF THE THINGS SAID TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH SATAN WORSHIP WERE RELATED TO THE OLD IDEAS OF NATURE WORSHIP WHICH IS NOT SATANISM OR WITCHCRAFT BUT A REVERENCE FOR NATURE AND THE FORCE OR FORCES THAT CREATED EVERYTHING. IN THE PROCESS OF ONE RELIGION DISPOSING OF A OLDER LOCAL RELIGION ALL SUCH BELIEFS AND THEIR SYMBOLS WERE SAID TO BE OF THE DEVIL AND FEARSOME EXAMPLES WERE MADE OF PEOPLE TO TRY AND STAMP OUT SUCH PRACTICES. MANY SECRET SOCIETYS EVOLVED FROM THIS AND BEING SECRET I AM SURE THEY HAD SECRET SIGNS AND MEETINGS SO IF HISTORY NOTES THEM AT ALL IT WILL BE FROM THE VIEWS OF THOSE WHO FIND AND DESTROY THEM. IF THEY BELONGED TO SUCH A SOCIETY AND IT IS STILL IN EXHISTANCE I DOUBT THAT THE KNIFE WOULD HAVE BEEN SOLD UNLESS A THIEF TOOK IT. PERHAPS THERE ARE THOSE WHO WORSHIP SATAN AND HOPE TO GAIN WEALTH AND POWER THRU IT BUT I WOULD THINK THEY WOULD BE FAR AND FEW IN BETWEEN THROUGHT HISTORY. MANY OF THE THINGS YOU READ ABOUT BLACK MASSES, HUMAN SACRIFICE, SUMMONING DEAMONS , VAMPIRES, DRAGONS AND ORGES ARE BASED ON OLD TALES, BOOKS, MOVIES AND SUCH. SOME CHOOSE TO BELIEVE IN THESE STORYS AND TRY TO BECOME A MASTER OF THE BLACK ARTS OR A WICKED WITCH AND MAY DO SOME TERRIBLE SECRET THINGS AND BECOME FEARED AS A DEAMON IN HUMAN FORM. THIS IS THEIR DOING BUT I FEEL THEY DON'T GET ANY REAL POWER FROM IT AND IT IS A FORM OF ROLE PLAYING GAME. THE DEVIL WILL OF COURSE TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS FOR HIS OWN ENDS BUT IS A FRIEND TO NO MAN. FIGURES FROM GREEK, ROMAN, EGYPTIAN AND OTHER TIMES AND COUNTRYS HAVE BECOME THE FASHON IN ART THROUGHOUT HISTORY. PERHAPS THE INDIVIDUAL WHO BOUGHT OR ORDERED THE DAGGER MADE WOULD KNOW WHAT ALL THE SYMBOLS STOOD FOR, PERHAPS NOT. A SECRET SOCIETY WOULD KNOW WHAT THE SYMBOLS STOOD FOR AND THEY WOULD BE A PART OF THEIR CREDO. I WOULD THINK THAT ONE WHO PRACTEDED THE BLACK ARTS WOULD HAVE SOME PROTECTIVE SPELLS AND DEADLY CURSES INCORPORATED INTO THE DESIGNS UNLESS CURSES AND SPELLS CAN ONLY BE SPOKEN.? BUT I DON'T SEE WHY THEY WOULD HAVE RELIGIOUS SYMBOLS OF THE CHURCH AND SUCH ON A IMPLEMENT THEY PLANNED TO USE TO DESICRATE THE CHURCH AND RELIGION. SOME POSSIBILITYS FOR THE ORIGINAL DAGGER WOULD BE 1. ONE OR MORE EXAMPLES WERE MADE TO BE PRESENTED AS GIFTS TO SOME IMPORTANT PERSON. PERHAPS VICTOR HUGO HIMSELF? IF YOU COULD PROVE THAT IT WOULD BE WORTH MORE THAN A MERE SATANIC DAGGER 2. AN ARTIST LIKED THE BOOK AND WAS INSPIRED TO MAKE THE KNIFE OR SOMEONE ELSE COMMISIONED IT AS HE WAS A FAN OF VICTOR HUGO. 3. THE VICTOR HUGO FAN CLUB HAD THEM MADE IN THE THOUSANDS FOR ALL MEMBERS OR NOT I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY OF THESE DAGGERS TAKEN APART BEFORE AND WONDER IF VERY MANY KNIVES WERE MADE WITH THE DETACHABLE BLADE AND IF IT MIGHT HAVE HAD MULTIPLE BLADES FOR DIFFERENT USES? MY GUT FEELING ABOUT THIS TYPE OF KNIFE IS THAT IT WAS NOT MADE FOR USE BY THOSE WHO WORSHIP SATAN. BUT IN THE YEARS SINCE ITS CREATION WHO KNOWS WHO HAS HAD IT OR WHAT THEY HAVE USED IT FOR. AS THEY HAVE BEEN SOLD AS DAGGERS RELATED TO WITCHCRAFT, ECT. AT LEAST SINCE THE EARLY 1960'S. SORRY I CAN'T LAY ALL THE INFORMATION OF THE TYPE AND THE HISTORY ON YOU . BUT REGARDLESS OF WHAT IT IS ITS A REAL SWEET DAGGER AND IT HAS BEEN A VERY INTERESTING DISCUSSION. PS. THE SWASTKA IS ALSO AN ANCIANT SYMBOL USED BY SOME OF THE AMERICAN INDIAN TRIBES, A VERY OLD SYMBOL BUT NOTHING EVIL ABOUT IT.