Satanic dagger, Age & country of Origin?

[David]

Thanks Wolviex, that just about nails it for me. This last dagger you have presented shows tha tfigurative daggers were being made at the time that illustrated literary themes. probably the creator of Spirals dagger found the title "Hunchback of Notre Dame" a bit to long to place on the blade.
I would only disagree with you that the images on all these other daggers are "evil" in nature. Death is a fact of life and i see nothing evil about images of skulls or skeletal forms. Snakes i have always seen as a postive symbol as they are in most cultures around the world. Owls we have discussed. Images of winged and/or horned demons can be seen in many different ways. The images of Pan and the Green Man were turned into images of the Devil by the church. Very early images of some angels are also horned. The horn is generally seen as a sign of power. Jews blow the shofar. Horn is highly prized by many cultures for a reason. My point is that evil is really in the eyes of the beholder here. Spiral wants to see satanists everywhere. It makes this dagger more valuable to him to think it was once owned by one. Frankly i find it to be very interesting regardless.
There are certainly other daggers shown in this thread that are much more obviously occult. But an assumption that they are therefore "satanic" in intent can only be made by those who lack a deeper understanding of occult matters. Occult matters are by their very nature hidden and often dark, in that they deal with a side of nature that is not usually embraced by the general public. People tend to fear what they don't understand. That doesn't necesarily make it evil.
Wolviex supports my thought that these occult daggers were most probably meant for show, or in some cases for the use of tracing sigils as a symbolic weapon of air in lodge style ceremonial magick. I seriously doubt they were ever employed as a means of sacrifice, animal or otherwise.

[wolviex]

Originally Posted by David

I would only disagree with you that the images on all these other daggers are "evil" in nature.

Thanks David.
Yes you maybe right and I won't dig deeper. My thought on images was just general. There are some images maybe not 'evil' but more fearsome like gargoyle/devil with great wings, skeleton in armour - well for me scary . But it depends on culture where it was made. For Europeans black is sad, and in India happy colour.

Regards!

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by wolviex

Thanks David.
Yes you maybe right and I won't dig deeper. My thought on images was just general. There are some images maybe not 'evil' but more fearsome like gargoyle/devil with great wings, skeleton in armour - well for me scary . But it depends on culture where it was made. For Europeans black is sad, and in India happy colour.

Regards!

Hi Wolviex,

In many cultures evil looking creatures are put up by the good guys to defend them from the real evil creatures OR to placate the evil creatures so they leave the good guys alone. I think that we see much more of this than we see people actually worshipping demonic spirits.

In Bali, for instance, offerings are made to demons that contain rotten foods because they think that is what the demons would like to have. Make the demons happy and they may leave you alone and also chase away other demons.

It is all in your perspective and frame of reference. For instance if you make friends with a vicious dog in your home, he will protect you. BUT to a person outside, your vicious dog may appear to be demonic.

Where black is a India color of happiness, white is their color for death.

It is very difficult to understand another culture's symbols without a deep study fo their culture, religion and history. Even then it can be terribly misunderstood. Even Margaret Mead made some mistakes.

Often, the actual natives themsleves don't understand time honored rituals and symbols. Reading a marvelous book, "Shields of Melanasia" where questions were asked about why certain devices and synbols are still being used. The natives don't know anymore. They say they use them because "they always have."

I am really enjoying this thread. I have learned a lot and am impressed (again) by the breadth, depth of knowledge and elucidation of the members here.

[Emanuel]

Hmm the great fact I was going to shatter your argument with ain't no good Spiral. First of, what I now found is a true Gothic dagger as in Mediaeval. Secondly it's ivory not cast...third it actually supports your argument, the figures are seen upright...so much for that. anyway here's the pic for interest...all the text and captions are in German so I can't give any info about it. It shows dragons which is indeed a satanic symbol in mediaeval Christian iconography, and some sort of Cerberus too.

Will keep looking for an appropriate cast 19th c. example...

Emanuel

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hmm the great fact I was going to shatter your argument with ain't no good Spiral. First of, what I now found is a true Gothic dagger as in Mediaeval. Secondly it's ivory not cast...third it actually supports your argument, the figures are seen upright...so much for that. anyway here's the pic for interest...all the text and captions are in German so I can't give any info about it. It shows dragons which is indeed a satanic symbol in mediaeval Christian iconography, and some sort of Cerberus too.

Will keep looking for an appropriate cast 19th c. example...

Emanuel

An intresting piece Manolo, thankyou.

Spiral

[katana]

Originally Posted by Manolo

....all the text and captions are in German so I can't give any info about it. Emanuel

Hi Emanuel,
try copying and pasting on this translation site ...


http://world.altavista.com/tr


Regards David

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Hi Wolviex,

In many cultures evil looking creatures are put up by the good guys to defend them from the real evil creatures OR to placate the evil creatures so they leave the good guys alone. I think that we see much more of this than we see people actually worshipping demonic spirits.

In Bali, for instance, offerings are made to demons that contain rotten foods because they think that is what the demons would like to have. Make the demons happy and they may leave you alone and also chase away other demons.

It is all in your perspective and frame of reference. For instance if you make friends with a viscious dog, he will protect you. BUT to a person outside, your viscious dog may appear to be demonic.

Where black is a India color of happiness, white is their color for death.

It is very difficult to understand another culture's symbols without a deep study fo their culture, religion and history. Even then it can be terribly misunderstood.

Often, the actual natives themsleves don't understand time honored rituals and symbols. Reading a marvelous book, "Shields of Melanasia" where questions were asked about why certain devices and synbols are still being used. The natives don't know anymore. They say they use them because "they always have."

I am really enjoying this thread. I have learned a lot and am impressed (again) by the breadth, depth of knowledge and elucidation of the members here.

Good & valid points Bill.

Spiral

[spiral]

Originally Posted by David

Thanks Wolviex, that just about nails it for me. This last dagger you have presented shows tha tfigurative daggers were being made at the time that illustrated literary themes. probably the creator of Spirals dagger found the title "Hunchback of Notre Dame" a bit to long to place on the blade.
I would only disagree with you that the images on all these other daggers are "evil" in nature. Death is a fact of life and i see nothing evil about images of skulls or skeletal forms. Snakes i have always seen as a postive symbol as they are in most cultures around the world. Owls we have discussed. Images of winged and/or horned demons can be seen in many different ways. The images of Pan and the Green Man were turned into images of the Devil by the church. Very early images of some angels are also horned. The horn is generally seen as a sign of power. Jews blow the shofar. Horn is highly prized by many cultures for a reason. My point is that evil is really in the eyes of the beholder here. Spiral wants to see satanists everywhere. It makes this dagger more valuable to him to think it was once owned by one. Frankly i find it to be very interesting regardless.
There are certainly other daggers shown in this thread that are much more obviously occult. But an assumption that they are therefore "satanic" in intent can only be made by those who lack a deeper understanding of occult matters. Occult matters are by their very nature hidden and often dark, in that they deal with a side of nature that is not usually embraced by the general public. People tend to fear what they don't understand. That doesn't necesarily make it evil.
Wolviex supports my thought that these occult daggers were most probably meant for show, or in some cases for the use of tracing sigils as a symbolic weapon of air in lodge style ceremonial magick. I seriously doubt they were ever employed as a means of sacrifice, animal or otherwise.

Re. "Spiral wants to see satanists everywhere."

That is tottaly & radicaly mistaken veiw of me, without foundation or substance. Although I realise judging someone so arbritarily from are limeted online encounters could easily allow for such errors.

I work in fields that fully understand human projection, transferance etc. & although Gestalt in nature apprecite that evidence is usefull when looking at peoples opinions especialy those that have roots to thier childhoods.

Spiral

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by spiral

Re. "Spiral wants to see satanists everywhere."

That is tottaly & radicaly mistaken veiw of me, without foundation or substance. Although I realise judging someone so arbritarily from are limeted online encounters could easily allow for such errors.Spiral

Spiral,

I think that you are mistaking David's wry sense of humor (humour) here. In written communication we miss a great deal. Tempo, intonation, body language which are the major elements in communication.

Maybe we can cut each other a little slack?

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Spiral,

I think that you are mistaking David's wry sense of humor (humour) here. In written communication we miss a great deal. Tempo, intonation, body language which are the major elements in communication.

Maybe we can cut each other a little slack?

Certanly Bill,

Your correct, I recognise that what I said about internet communication is a true for me as it is for others.

I must admit I was also partialy bieng rather tounge in cheek playing a debating card as well, as I took Davids comment as realy bieng in the same spirit.

Humour is good. Dry humour is better!

Spiral