Satanic dagger, Age & country of Origin?

spiral · 11th January 2007, 12:25 AM

[QUOTE=David]. I would also like to point out that occult magickal symbols are more often created in much less representational form to hide their true meanings from the uninitiated. QUOTE]

Rather like this dagger perhaps? It just esmerelda , a pet goat & a tambourine...

& why of course the church just has to be upside down.

The innocents ones cant see...

{or dont want to?}

Spiral

Dont mind about the eggy landlord, he knows, thats what matters.

David · 11th January 2007, 02:00 AM

[QUOTE=spiralRather like this dagger perhaps? It just esmerelda , a pet goat & a tambourine...

& why of course the church just has to be upside down.

The innocents ones cant see...

{or dont want to?}
[/QUOTE]

Actually no Spiral, more rather like this. This is, of course, a modern ritual dagger, but it is based on a 19thC design.
As for being an innocent, that's pretty funny.

If you really knew me you would no doubt think me to be one of your "satanists".

spiral · 11th January 2007, 03:43 PM

[QUOTE=David.
As for being an innocent, that's pretty funny.

If you really knew me you would no doubt think me to be one of your "satanists".

[/QUOTE]

My comment on Innocents were teasing.

i doubt if many arms collecters & dealers or indeed that many human biengs in the western world are realy that innocent.

Religous upbringing can leave some recognisable traits & beliefs on occasion though, despite ones rebelion against them.

Spiral

katana · 11th January 2007, 05:56 PM

[QUOTE=spiral]

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

. I would also like to point out that occult magickal symbols are more often created in much less representational form to hide their true meanings from the uninitiated. QUOTE]

Rather like this dagger perhaps? It just esmerelda , a pet goat & a tambourine...

& why of course the church just has to be upside down.

Spiral

Spiral, if subtle symbolism is important.....to hide the daggers true purpose from the uninitiated........WHY are the INVERTED CROSSES so OBVIOUS....????

As regards the Pope sitting beneath an inverted cross......yes, it is ALL over the Web........but there are only 2 interpretations written about it.......the most common are the Conspirousy Theorists who cite there is only 'one meaning' and that is it is a Satanic symbol and that the Pope could be the 'Anti-Christ'. They have failed to research the Inverted Cross, if they did they would discover there is also St Peter's Cross , which to Catholics is a sign of 'humility' and 'unworthiness'.....a case of seeing what you want to see ???

Quote Wikipedia

The Alexandrian scholar Origen is the first to report that St. Peter 'was crucified head downward, for he had asked that he might suffer in this way'. Some Catholics use this cross as a symbol of humility and unworthiness in comparison to Christ.
It is also often associated with Satanism. Aleister Crowley believed this cross to be a symbol of inverted grace, or falling away from Christ's grace. As a result, this symbol has become very popular within the heavy metal, black metal and death metal music scenes (notably, members of bands such as Danzig, Deicide, and Gorgoroth have adorned themselves with large inverted cross pendants)
During the late Pope John Paul II's visit to Israel, a picture of him with a backdrop of St. Peter's cross was widely circulated on the Internet, propagating the belief of some that the Catholic Church is associated with Satanism. In fact the photograph is related to the Catholic tradition that St. Peter was martyred in Rome (and as Catholic tradition views the Pope as the successor of Peter, it is a logical symbol for the Roman Pontiff). The inverted cross is also one of the traditional symbols used by Petrine Orthodox Sebomenoi

Tim Simmons · 11th January 2007, 06:14 PM

I feel compelled to show how these classical and occult images are still in use today on prestige artifacts. These two could collect sacrificial blood except they were made for the worshipful company of lightmongers. Casting, chasing tools and methods have not changed in millennium. As for a spirtual quest I find just picking my feet enough

.

katana · 11th January 2007, 07:14 PM

I believe that ‘Satanic’ daggers exist but I have a few observations….

Firstly, a dagger used in Black Magic Rites would surely be greatly revered by the practitioners. As the dagger is continually used wouldn’t the ‘believers’ feel that the dagger would increasingly become imbued with ‘evil power’ and its significance increase? If so, why would these daggers be available to collectors? These could be likened to ‘Religious Relics’ …..afterall Satanism IS a RELIGION in true context.

Secondly, many Occult sects evolved late 17th early 18th Century…..as has been pointed out …usually involving the richer sections of society. However, few were truly ‘Satanic’ , most involved themselves in drunkenness, drug taking and sexual orgies. Practices that were considered anti-Christian. Bearing in mind the power of the Church, its wealth and its involvement in politics…..these people were the ‘back-lash’ to the overwhelming control of the Church. A ‘Rock and Roll’ club for Gentlemen

. Their actions more ‘Animalistic’ (and Anti-establishmental) than ‘Satanic’ and , IMHO any daggers attributed to this type of ‘club’…..should be viewed in the same context of ‘Freemason Paraphernalia.'

Thirdly, I pointed out the symbolism of the crucifix hilt, and you (Spiral) feel the cross guard is a functional necessity. Why? If the dagger is more symbolic and used in a Ritual (i.e. like a Phurba) …the guard is unnecessary. If the dagger is used in sacrifice…..the ‘offering’ would be usually incapacitated (bound or drugged) the wielder of the dagger could ‘pick his spot’ avoiding bone etc . If the throat is cut….the more usual method of sacrifice , the cross guard of a dagger would ‘get in the way’ ….? Surely Satanists would avoid having such a prominent Christian Symbol involved with their Rituals ?

I think that your dagger is a lovely piece of work. The casting is clean and crisp, the blade looks great……I still maintain that this is a themed dagger , if endowed with symbolism…I believe that it is a ‘political statement’ about the Church /Society at that time. I am not a Religious person but I do consider myself ‘Spiritual’, I am not in denial about the possibilities of ‘true’ satanistic daggers. This is a case of Yin and Yang………..if there is a good God there must be an equally powerful ‘evil’ god….such is the belief systems of Man kind since humanity ‘found’ religion.

spiral · 11th January 2007, 10:55 PM

[QUOTE=katana]

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Spiral, if subtle symbolism is important.....to hide the daggers true purpose from the uninitiated........WHY are the INVERTED CROSSES so OBVIOUS....????

As regards the Pope sitting beneath an inverted cross......yes, it is ALL over the Web........but there are only 2 interpretations written about it.......the most common are the Conspirousy Theorists who cite there is only 'one meaning' and that is it is a Satanic symbol and that the Pope could be the 'Anti-Christ'. They have failed to research the Inverted Cross, if they did they would discover there is also St Peter's Cross , which to Catholics is a sign of 'humility' and 'unworthiness'.....a case of seeing what you want to see ???

Quote Wikipedia

The Alexandrian scholar Origen is the first to report that St. Peter 'was crucified head downward, for he had asked that he might suffer in this way'. Some Catholics use this cross as a symbol of humility and unworthiness in comparison to Christ.
It is also often associated with Satanism. Aleister Crowley believed this cross to be a symbol of inverted grace, or falling away from Christ's grace. As a result, this symbol has become very popular within the heavy metal, black metal and death metal music scenes (notably, members of bands such as Danzig, Deicide, and Gorgoroth have adorned themselves with large inverted cross pendants)
During the late Pope John Paul II's visit to Israel, a picture of him with a backdrop of St. Peter's cross was widely circulated on the Internet, propagating the belief of some that the Catholic Church is associated with Satanism. In fact the photograph is related to the Catholic tradition that St. Peter was martyred in Rome (and as Catholic tradition views the Pope as the successor of Peter, it is a logical symbol for the Roman Pontiff). The inverted cross is also one of the traditional symbols used by Petrine Orthodox Sebomenoi

Subtle enough that the brotherhood of ethnographic arms collectors can not see it.

Wikpedia had all their satanist stuff rewritten as well. There all misunderstood nice boys realy!

its posted on there by any one who wishes! & gets thier friends to agree its hardly a serious political resource.

& guess what the The original Alexandrian Origen reports can not be found, it is a mere reinterpritation of them recycled. The were lost centurys ago.

Spiral

11th January 2007, 02:00 AM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,261	[QUOTE=spiralRather like this dagger perhaps? It just esmerelda , a pet goat & a tambourine... & why of course the church just has to be upside down. The innocents ones cant see... {or dont want to?} [/QUOTE] Actually no Spiral, more rather like this. This is, of course, a modern ritual dagger, but it is based on a 19thC design. As for being an innocent, that's pretty funny. If you really knew me you would no doubt think me to be one of your "satanists". Attached Images

11th January 2007, 06:14 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,935	I feel compelled to show how these classical and occult images are still in use today on prestige artifacts. These two could collect sacrificial blood except they were made for the worshipful company of lightmongers. Casting, chasing tools and methods have not changed in millennium. As for a spirtual quest I find just picking my feet enough . Last edited by Tim Simmons; 11th January 2007 at 06:26 PM.

11th January 2007, 12:25 AM	#1
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	[QUOTE=David]. I would also like to point out that occult magickal symbols are more often created in much less representational form to hide their true meanings from the uninitiated. QUOTE] Rather like this dagger perhaps? It just esmerelda , a pet goat & a tambourine... & why of course the church just has to be upside down. The innocents ones cant see... {or dont want to?} Spiral Dont mind about the eggy landlord, he knows, thats what matters.

11th January 2007, 03:43 PM	#3
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	[QUOTE=David. As for being an innocent, that's pretty funny. If you really knew me you would no doubt think me to be one of your "satanists". [/QUOTE] My comment on Innocents were teasing. i doubt if many arms collecters & dealers or indeed that many human biengs in the western world are realy that innocent. Religous upbringing can leave some recognisable traits & beliefs on occasion though, despite ones rebelion against them. Spiral

11th January 2007, 07:14 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I believe that ‘Satanic’ daggers exist but I have a few observations…. Firstly, a dagger used in Black Magic Rites would surely be greatly revered by the practitioners. As the dagger is continually used wouldn’t the ‘believers’ feel that the dagger would increasingly become imbued with ‘evil power’ and its significance increase? If so, why would these daggers be available to collectors? These could be likened to ‘Religious Relics’ …..afterall Satanism IS a RELIGION in true context. Secondly, many Occult sects evolved late 17th early 18th Century…..as has been pointed out …usually involving the richer sections of society. However, few were truly ‘Satanic’ , most involved themselves in drunkenness, drug taking and sexual orgies. Practices that were considered anti-Christian. Bearing in mind the power of the Church, its wealth and its involvement in politics…..these people were the ‘back-lash’ to the overwhelming control of the Church. A ‘Rock and Roll’ club for Gentlemen . Their actions more ‘Animalistic’ (and Anti-establishmental) than ‘Satanic’ and , IMHO any daggers attributed to this type of ‘club’…..should be viewed in the same context of ‘Freemason Paraphernalia.' Thirdly, I pointed out the symbolism of the crucifix hilt, and you (Spiral) feel the cross guard is a functional necessity. Why? If the dagger is more symbolic and used in a Ritual (i.e. like a Phurba) …the guard is unnecessary. If the dagger is used in sacrifice…..the ‘offering’ would be usually incapacitated (bound or drugged) the wielder of the dagger could ‘pick his spot’ avoiding bone etc . If the throat is cut….the more usual method of sacrifice , the cross guard of a dagger would ‘get in the way’ ….? Surely Satanists would avoid having such a prominent Christian Symbol involved with their Rituals ? I think that your dagger is a lovely piece of work. The casting is clean and crisp, the blade looks great……I still maintain that this is a themed dagger , if endowed with symbolism…I believe that it is a ‘political statement’ about the Church /Society at that time. I am not a Religious person but I do consider myself ‘Spiritual’, I am not in denial about the possibilities of ‘true’ satanistic daggers. This is a case of Yin and Yang………..if there is a good God there must be an equally powerful ‘evil’ god….such is the belief systems of Man kind since humanity ‘found’ religion.