Very Interesting Indian sword for discussion

Conogre · 19th February 2005, 03:57 AM

I've refrained from commenting as it seems inapropriate when all one can do is gush over a piece, but......well, gush!
Beautiful!

tom hyle · 19th February 2005, 05:36 AM

Ordinarily, each quillon has a sort of tang, and these are welded or soldered in between the two halves of the hilt.

RSWORD · 19th February 2005, 02:20 PM

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the reference to Egerton. Yes, the quillons and guard are welded on but I do not believe they are later additions. The gold koftari on both match the grip quite well both in decoration and patina. It is interesting that the example I found in Buttin and the example you found in Egerton have the same grip but different guards and/or quillon. However, I was doing more digging through my references and ran across another example. This one has the exact same hilt but with shamshir blade. It is from an art musuem display from the 1970's. The only description they give for the sword is Mughal sword, 18th century. Here is the pic of the example

Jeff D · 19th February 2005, 03:15 PM

Hi Rick

Well, you certainly do have a mystery. On both pieces shown, the quillions appear welded on. Why? They are both very well made, certainly the smith was capable of making it from a single block, or masking the weld. I will see if I can find any more examples.

Jeff

tom hyle · 19th February 2005, 04:18 PM

Here is a man who has never taken apart a tulwar, I think

They usually make the hilt in two hollow-backed shells, welded together, usually by a copper based solder (brazed), each half/shell is cross-shaped, and the arms, as well as the long leg are hollow (the "head" if you will, is flatter, thinner and forms the lagnets. The "leg" becomes the handle, and is also joined to the disc pommel, which may be made of as many as 4 or 5 pieces itself; the hollow remains hollow, to be filled with the pitch adhesive that holds the tang. Each hollow "arm" on the welded/soldered/brazed-up finished hilt is filled with basically a huge round nail. The nail-head (as it were) becomes the swelled tip of the quillon, while the nail itself (and mind you it isn't really a nail, but a purpose-made piece) fills the hollow quillons for part or all of their length. That is the usual tulwar hilt, and yeah, you're right; this ain't quite it that we're seeing here; it's certainly a variation, I'd say. The Turkish cross-shaped hilt may be structured differently, as well as Persian, kaskara ones, Swahili/Arab ones I've seen were split out of a single block, but with a small opening, requiring a seperate ferule. Oops; my shower's gonna run cold!

tom hyle · 19th February 2005, 04:36 PM

Now, the Lumad metal hilts are lost-wax-cast one piece brass, thick-walled, with a smaller hollow center, allowing a thin layer of adhesive between tang and hilt. They are said to be made by the women. Piso pedang report, please? African brass hilts; cast-on as usually said?

Jeff D · 19th February 2005, 04:38 PM

Thanks Tom for the description, I am lost without pictures. If you ever take one of these apart again please take some pictures. Actually, you are a fairly adept artist perhaps a drawing. I personally am way to chicken to ever attempt this myself.
I have been under the impresssion that the quillion and hilt are a single piece as I have never seen a junction. I will look closer. This still makes it hard to explain the quillion guard junction on Rick's two examples.

All the best
Jeff

RSWORD · 19th February 2005, 11:58 PM

Jeff

A mystery is fun and I hope more examples will come to light from our collective resources. It is interesting in that the examples that we have found thusfar really do not have a solid identifier but rather very loose descriptions. I am hoping the koftgari provides some insight as well. It is very nicely executed and the decoration is much smaller than I have found on other gold hilts. Hopefully, our Indian contention will join in with some thoughts.

19th February 2005, 02:20 PM	#3
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	Hi Jeff, Thanks for the reference to Egerton. Yes, the quillons and guard are welded on but I do not believe they are later additions. The gold koftari on both match the grip quite well both in decoration and patina. It is interesting that the example I found in Buttin and the example you found in Egerton have the same grip but different guards and/or quillon. However, I was doing more digging through my references and ran across another example. This one has the exact same hilt but with shamshir blade. It is from an art musuem display from the 1970's. The only description they give for the sword is Mughal sword, 18th century. Here is the pic of the example Attached Images

19th February 2005, 04:18 PM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Here is a man who has never taken apart a tulwar, I think They usually make the hilt in two hollow-backed shells, welded together, usually by a copper based solder (brazed), each half/shell is cross-shaped, and the arms, as well as the long leg are hollow (the "head" if you will, is flatter, thinner and forms the lagnets. The "leg" becomes the handle, and is also joined to the disc pommel, which may be made of as many as 4 or 5 pieces itself; the hollow remains hollow, to be filled with the pitch adhesive that holds the tang. Each hollow "arm" on the welded/soldered/brazed-up finished hilt is filled with basically a huge round nail. The nail-head (as it were) becomes the swelled tip of the quillon, while the nail itself (and mind you it isn't really a nail, but a purpose-made piece) fills the hollow quillons for part or all of their length. That is the usual tulwar hilt, and yeah, you're right; this ain't quite it that we're seeing here; it's certainly a variation, I'd say. The Turkish cross-shaped hilt may be structured differently, as well as Persian, kaskara ones, Swahili/Arab ones I've seen were split out of a single block, but with a small opening, requiring a seperate ferule. Oops; my shower's gonna run cold! Last edited by tom hyle; 19th February 2005 at 04:33 PM.

19th February 2005, 03:57 AM	#1
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	I've refrained from commenting as it seems inapropriate when all one can do is gush over a piece, but......well, gush! Beautiful!

19th February 2005, 05:36 AM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Ordinarily, each quillon has a sort of tang, and these are welded or soldered in between the two halves of the hilt.

19th February 2005, 03:15 PM	#4
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Rick Well, you certainly do have a mystery. On both pieces shown, the quillions appear welded on. Why? They are both very well made, certainly the smith was capable of making it from a single block, or masking the weld. I will see if I can find any more examples. Jeff

19th February 2005, 04:36 PM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Now, the Lumad metal hilts are lost-wax-cast one piece brass, thick-walled, with a smaller hollow center, allowing a thin layer of adhesive between tang and hilt. They are said to be made by the women. Piso pedang report, please? African brass hilts; cast-on as usually said?

19th February 2005, 04:38 PM	#7
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Thanks Tom for the description, I am lost without pictures. If you ever take one of these apart again please take some pictures. Actually, you are a fairly adept artist perhaps a drawing. I personally am way to chicken to ever attempt this myself. I have been under the impresssion that the quillion and hilt are a single piece as I have never seen a junction. I will look closer. This still makes it hard to explain the quillion guard junction on Rick's two examples. All the best Jeff

19th February 2005, 11:58 PM	#8
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	Jeff A mystery is fun and I hope more examples will come to light from our collective resources. It is interesting in that the examples that we have found thusfar really do not have a solid identifier but rather very loose descriptions. I am hoping the koftgari provides some insight as well. It is very nicely executed and the decoration is much smaller than I have found on other gold hilts. Hopefully, our Indian contention will join in with some thoughts.