Satanic dagger, Age & country of Origin?

[David]

Originally Posted by spiral

& a "later" example. {Which means more recently for those who were unaware. }

Spiral, really no need for you to continue to rub this in. It was late when i responded and i simply misread you. One remark i can laugh with you, the second is unnecessary.
Thanks for the photos of these beautifully crafted daggers. I do question the assumption (not just on your part) that any dagger depicting the devil is necessarily a satanic ritual tool used in some dark rite. Sometimes art is just art. I think dealers are quick to put such a tag on these items because the concept of "evil" fascinates many and they think (correctly) that the items will command higher prices. Blades like the last one, IMO, have no distinct satanic symbolism. Skulls and snakes do not necessarily point to satanism. Skulls and skeletal forms have been used in art by many cultures over the centuries and are not necessarially negative images. Snakes aren't either for that matter and in many cases signify life and regeneration. The skull is a very common Mason symbol for one.
The inverted liberty torch is very interesting in your first example, but i wonder if it doesn't have more of a political reference than a spiritual one. It's placement between a winged caduseus legged demon and an owl, a symbol of wisdom is very intriguing. It would be nice to see some closer images of this. Doesn't look like it's seen much use though.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by David

Spiral, really no need for you to continue to rub this in. It was late when i responded and i simply misread you. One remark i can laugh with you, the second is unnecessary.
Thanks for the photos of these beautifully crafted daggers. I do question the assumption (not just on your part) that any dagger depicting the devil is necessarily a satanic ritual tool used in some dark rite. Sometimes art is just art. I think dealers are quick to put such a tag on these items because the concept of "evil" fascinates many and they think (correctly) that the items will command higher prices. Blades like the last one, IMO, have no distinct satanic symbolism. Skulls and snakes do not necessarily point to satanism. Skulls and skeletal forms have been used in art by many cultures over the centuries and are not necessarially negative images. Snakes aren't either for that matter and in many cases signify life and regeneration. The skull is a very common Mason symbol for one.
The inverted liberty torch is very interesting in your first example, but i wonder if it doesn't have more of a political reference than a spiritual one. It's placement between a winged caduseus legged demon and an owl, a symbol of wisdom is very intriguing. It would be nice to see some closer images of this. Doesn't look like it's seen much use though.

Originally Posted by David

Spiral, really no need for you to continue to rub this in. It was late when i responded and i simply misread you. One remark i can laugh with you, the second is unnecessary.
Thanks for the photos of these beautifully crafted daggers. I do question the assumption (not just on your part) that any dagger depicting the devil is necessarily a satanic ritual tool used in some dark rite. Sometimes art is just art. I think dealers are quick to put such a tag on these items because the concept of "evil" fascinates many and they think (correctly) that the items will command higher prices. Blades like the last one, IMO, have no distinct satanic symbolism. Skulls and snakes do not necessarily point to satanism. Skulls and skeletal forms have been used in art by many cultures over the centuries and are not necessarially negative images. Snakes aren't either for that matter and in many cases signify life and regeneration. The skull is a very common Mason symbol for one.
The inverted liberty torch is very interesting in your first example, but i wonder if it doesn't have more of a political reference than a spiritual one. It's placement between a winged caduseus legged demon and an owl, a symbol of wisdom is very intriguing. It would be nice to see some closer images of this. Doesn't look like it's seen much use though.

Yes Indeed sorry you took offence David it was early in the morning when i replied.

The first mention was a factual correction for you, I didnt imagine that would make you laugh, the second was meant to be the humour. Sorry that it fell flat for you. Written humour can be hard to interprit sometimes.

Religion & politics are very closely aligned i think, they are both often used by some to control others. I was under the impresion that what helped found many aristocratic satanist groups as a way of retaining the power they had lost to Politicians & clergy.

I would percieve the torches upside down as turning liberty on its head.

An owl is also a common satanic symbol , often refered to as moloch to whom human sacrifices are made.

I have further pictures of these daggers & others but without gaining the permision of the currant owners I am not prepared to post them.

i agree dealers like to make money, but both those mentioned are well known for thier expertise & in BRLs case especialy with American & European knives.

I am visiting a curator who specialises in theology,old occult,pagan, satanist etc. artifacts,books & symbolism next week for his veiw.

Since posting this here & elswere I have had a couple of offers from people who collect such items {or who have a "friend" who does in one case, whom seem in no doubt about what it is.}

I think the nature of the beast sends up a lot of denial from people.

Ive been researching this for 6 weeks & hoped someone here might actualy be able to add to the facts that i have been accumilating about these re. date & origin. Or be able to illustrate thier points against with other examples of such pieces & thier "christian group or fantasy piece" evidence.

Although numerous comments generaly from people totaly outside thier fields of expieriance or expertise are intresting I have yet to see anything of factual substance or even an awarness that such things exist!

Seems rather like wishfull thinking to me.

Perhaps an ethnographic arms forum wasnt the right place to post this.

Spiral

[Emanuel]

Hi Spiral,
On the last dagger you posted, does the helm visor actually swivel open and shut over the skeleton or is it just my impression? Very fine craftsmanship on these items.

Here's a thought about the "gipsy woman" dagger: if holding the dagger so the figure is seen upright, the church is upside down. In this case, she could be seen as dancing over the reversed church and mocking the Church. Gipsies are an image of chaos and anarchy I think, so perhaps the dagger represents the overturning of the Church by chaotic liberalism. It would fit the troubled times of the early 19th century, and could arguably be disguised as an artistic object reflecting literary sources - Hugo maybe.

Emanuel

[David]

Well actually Spiral, i laughed the first time and sorta said "duh!" to myself, so the second time around it was getting old. No offense really.
I think you may have misunderstood my position. I am not denying that satanic groups have and do exist. I do, however, think some of these blades may have been misinterpreted. I actually think people are more likely to jump to the conclusion that things are satanic, often when they are not. The early church, and to some extent the present one, would consider anything non-Christian to have a satanic root. The owl can be seen as a representative of Moloch, but for me it is a stretch to connect old pre-Christian gods with satanism even if they were rumored to perform human sacrifices.
I think it is very important to realize the source of the stories of satanic cults before we buy any of the infomation they present without a large grain of salt. No, this doesn't mean that i am in denial that such cults have and do exist, but i do seriously downplay the conspiratorial hype surrounding these stories. Groups were often labelled satanic by the church simply because they had gained too much power for the comfort level of the church and local governments. See the story of the knights Templars for instance. It was also said of them that initiates had to spit on and trample the cross and that they prayed to a head in a box called Baphomet. What the church and the government really wanted were all their fertile lands in the south of France. They also started the European banking system and many powerful people owed them money. I guess they must be satanists, eh? I have studied the occult and it's histories now for nearly 30 years, so perhaps i have a different perspective on it than most. I do know that things are not always what they seem nor what they would have us believe.

[Tim Simmons]

I cannot see anything scary or "satanic" in these knives. The images are just allegorical and mimic the late renaissance art styles and taste. They are just the Franklin Mint fantasy daggers of their day all be of very good quality. Similar quality of work can be found on late 19th century meat carving sets with rather more domestic imagery. IMHO.

[Tim Simmons]

Here are two late 16th century bronze pieces that show this late renaissance style. This style is in many ways a classical revival with some added vigor.



And finally a "satanic" candle stick made by Minton & Co 1859. A fine example of the 19th century renaissance revival. Put a black candle in it and we can all scream satanic abuse.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Here are two late 16th century bronze pieces that show this late renaissance style. This style is in many ways a classical revival with some added vigor.



And finally a "satanic" candle stick made by Minton & Co 1859. A fine example of the 19th century renaissance revival. Put a black candle in it and we can all scream satanic abuse.

Your realy cluthching at straws now Tim!

Show me some figural knives from this period, with satanic, christian or any other symbolism on them so we can have a serious discusian.


Spiral

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I cannot see anything scary or "satanic" in these knives. The images are just allegorical and mimic the late renaissance art styles and taste. They are just the Franklin Mint fantasy daggers of their day all be of very good quality. Similar quality of work can be found on late 19th century meat carving sets with rather more domestic imagery. IMHO.

I always find your veiws & opinions on evry item I have ever posted Tim, highly entertaining. thankyou for that.

i would be very concerned if you thought it looked like anything i thought it was.

Spiral

[spiral]

Originally Posted by David

Well actually Spiral, i laughed the first time and sorta said "duh!" to myself, so the second time around it was getting old. No offense really.
I think you may have misunderstood my position. I am not denying that satanic groups have and do exist. I do, however, think some of these blades may have been misinterpreted. I actually think people are more likely to jump to the conclusion that things are satanic, often when they are not. The early church, and to some extent the present one, would consider anything non-Christian to have a satanic root. The owl can be seen as a representative of Moloch, but for me it is a stretch to connect old pre-Christian gods with satanism even if they were rumored to perform human sacrifices.
I think it is very important to realize the source of the stories of satanic cults before we buy any of the infomation they present without a large grain of salt. No, this doesn't mean that i am in denial that such cults have and do exist, but i do seriously downplay the conspiratorial hype surrounding these stories. Groups were often labelled satanic by the church simply because they had gained too much power for the comfort level of the church and local governments. See the story of the knights Templars for instance. It was also said of them that initiates had to spit on and trample the cross and that they prayed to a head in a box called Baphomet. What the church and the government really wanted were all their fertile lands in the south of France. They also started the European banking system and many powerful people owed them money. I guess they must be satanists, eh? I have studied the occult and it's histories now for nearly 30 years, so perhaps i have a different perspective on it than most. I do know that things are not always what they seem nor what they would have us believe.

I agree with much of what you say. Particularily "I do know that things are not always what they seem nor what they would have us believe. "

I was reading Colin Wilsons stuff 30 years ago muyself, & much sinse but I have only been researching this for 6 weeks.

Its intresting some satanists & collectors of these see the owl as Moloch & you saw it as the owl of wisdom.

Indeed so much is open to interpritation.

Spiral

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by David

The owl can be seen as a representative of Moloch, but for me it is a stretch to connect old pre-Christian gods with satanism even if they were rumored to perform human sacrifices.

You bring up a very good point here and that is that many of the symbols seen in modern religion ( Christian or Satanic ) and modern societal use pre-date Christianity. The fish used by christianity supposedly before the cross and still into today is also a very ancient symbol used by other religions, such as Buddhists and Pagans. At the risk of upsetting some ( and I am Roman Catholic so I understand how some could be upset by this I hope they will not ) there are parrallels between parts of the mass and the pagan rituals that the church often knowing adopted to help with getting conversions. Aristaeus , from Greek Mythology, son of the god Apollo and the nymph Cyrene, was often represented as a youthful shepherd carrying a lamb. The head of the fish forming a mitre above the head of a man, was used to represent the fish god Dagon, Some attribute the mitre which the Pope wears to beginning here. A dove, sometimes with an olive branch in its mouth, which is supposed to represent peace or the Holy Spirit today, and which supposedly was taken from either the story of when Noah sent the dove from the ark and it came back with the olive twig; or the Dove descending on Christ at His baptism, before that it represented Juno, the queen of heaven. Even the cross can be seen used in other religions. I believe there are crosses as Hindu symbolism, in Babylon they were used to represent the worship of sun gods and some say it was not until Emperor Constantine that they were used for christianity. The upside down cross often again associated with satanism is in some circles called Peter's cross as St. Peter is said to have been crucified upside down

So again to get to the point I was speaking of before rambling. All symbolism, including or perhaps particularly that on weapons can and will be interpreted differently by different groups based on their context. We may not be able to establish the context or the symbolism until we know why and when the knife was made and we may not be able to tell where and why it was made until we understand the symbolism. Indeed a problem

Originally Posted by David

Groups were often labelled satanic by the church simply because they had gained too much power for the comfort level of the church and local governments.

There is also no question this is true. Such accusations were widely abused because the person was always guilty until proven innocent , which was difficult to do.


BTW to everyone here on all sides of this discussion ( Satanic, Pagan and Hunchback of Notre Dame) I must say a great job of debating the case is being done on all sides.


Spiral
IMHO the way the blade is attached would again point towards this being a ritual or decorative item and never really designed for much use.

[Emanuel]

Wouldn't that strange construction exclude use as a weapon - sacrificial or otherwise? The short fillet wouldn't hold the blade too well in a stab would it? In my mind this adds to the possibility of the dagger being an artistic/decorative object...or if intended for some cult ceremony then certainly only for show, not use? Do you know hoe the other daggers you posted were constructed?
I wonder why use such construction? The original blade would have had a tang no? I would surmise the creator of this piece took a broken blade he had at hand and gave it a new life as a romantic -or be it ceremonial/cult- object to be sold at greater value.

[spiral]

Well most satanic knives are made of recycled or older blades. perhaps they already carried the symbolism as a used weapon?

The threading into the blade is incredibly tight & would certanly not be weakend by a couple of ribs. it is a short tang but locks up incredibly solid.

sure it wouldnt last years of wood chopping but a direct stab, {as all daggers & bayonets are designed for} wouldnt be a problem.

its steel threaded into steel on a 6mm diameter bar. 8mm deep I think an engineer could point out that that is a fairly strong fixing for a dagger.


i am intrigued that considering satanists or whatever they may be called have been around by definition as long as christiantity that there is so much apparent rejection of there bieng types of knife used by them.

even boy scouts used to have thier own blades!



Spiral

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Manolo

I wonder why use such construction? The original blade would have had a tang no? I would surmise the creator of this piece took a broken blade he had at hand and gave it a new life as a romantic -or be it ceremonial/cult- object to be sold at greater value.

I would guess its original blade as a sword was nearer 18 inches? I think that would be right for a 16th century swiss Baselard?

Spiral

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hi Spiral,
On the last dagger you posted, does the helm visor actually swivel open and shut over the skeleton or is it just my impression? Very fine craftsmanship on these items.

Here's a thought about the "gipsy woman" dagger: if holding the dagger so the figure is seen upright, the church is upside down. In this case, she could be seen as dancing over the reversed church and mocking the Church. Gipsies are an image of chaos and anarchy I think, so perhaps the dagger represents the overturning of the Church by chaotic liberalism. It would fit the troubled times of the early 19th century, and could arguably be disguised as an artistic object reflecting literary sources - Hugo maybe.

Emanuel

Yes indeed it does Emanuel if you look at the photos again you will see some with visor open, some closed.

Spiral