Satanic dagger, Age & country of Origin?

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Yikes, I had no idea there was such knowledge on the 'black arts' here!!
Scary stuff!!


As mentioned, I had noted that I had thought these decorated scabbards were to be viewed point up, but must admit that although I had seen some reference somewhere with comments to that effect concerning looking at the sword, I honestly cannot relocate that item. Actually, I simply considered the structure of the church and obviously the doors had to be shown at the wider part of the scabbard, while the peak of the church would narrow toward the tip or point. It would seem silly to think that the doors would be seen upside down, on the roof ?(reminds me of the kids game with interlocked fingers about the church and steeple, of course I always got it wrong and my people were on the roof!!
Also, in discussions of the sword, the blade is often termed the 'root' of the blade, thus at the hand, and grows upward. In edged weapon esoterica, the Indian katar is often decorated with the 'kundalini' flame, which originates at the root of the blade, and burns upward, thus the blade would be viewed point upward. I believe these were the basis of my comment.

In finally looking at the Holbein daggers I mentioned, the decoration is shown in linear, that is viewed sideways ,so it would seem there is no set manner in viewing a scabbard as I had suggested. I apologize for my assumption and for the unsupported statement.

Returning to the dagger, it seems that about mid 16th century, decorative sheath designs began to become popular, most notably the Holbein examples I have mentioned. Apparantly Hans Holbein (the younger) published his book "The Dance of Death" in Lyons c.1523, and created scabbards with macabre theme based on his drawings. Later other examples took scenes from Roman and Swiss history as well as Old Testament themes. It would seem that this decorative theme motif on daggers and sheaths extended through Europe, and this example, though certainly much later of course, is carrying out its theme from literary sources in the same manner.

Best regards,
Jim

Thankyou Jim, intresting stuff! Thankyou for taking the time.

Although the blade is liklely to be originaly from The Holbien period, i am sure the scabbord & handle are later.

The closet things I can find {as mentioned} in exotic cast handle pieces, is in the wallace collection that was a gift from Napolean III to the 4th Marques in 1860.

& the of course the 1871 Satanic knife brokered by Bernard Levine some years ago for $10,000.





Which shows the satanic motifs on the scabbard the right way up when the figural handle is upright. {which after all seems the logical way to study a figural piece.} But the signs of Liberty upside down.

Both of which are clearly veiwed handle upright.


For Wolviex & others who clearly havent seen such similar things heres 2 other examples.

Another spiecimien,



From Liongate Arms & armour. http://www.antiqueswords.com/mw57.htm

& a "later" example. {Which means more recently for those who were unaware. }




Spiral

[David]

Originally Posted by spiral

& a "later" example. {Which means more recently for those who were unaware. }

Spiral, really no need for you to continue to rub this in. It was late when i responded and i simply misread you. One remark i can laugh with you, the second is unnecessary.
Thanks for the photos of these beautifully crafted daggers. I do question the assumption (not just on your part) that any dagger depicting the devil is necessarily a satanic ritual tool used in some dark rite. Sometimes art is just art. I think dealers are quick to put such a tag on these items because the concept of "evil" fascinates many and they think (correctly) that the items will command higher prices. Blades like the last one, IMO, have no distinct satanic symbolism. Skulls and snakes do not necessarily point to satanism. Skulls and skeletal forms have been used in art by many cultures over the centuries and are not necessarially negative images. Snakes aren't either for that matter and in many cases signify life and regeneration. The skull is a very common Mason symbol for one.
The inverted liberty torch is very interesting in your first example, but i wonder if it doesn't have more of a political reference than a spiritual one. It's placement between a winged caduseus legged demon and an owl, a symbol of wisdom is very intriguing. It would be nice to see some closer images of this. Doesn't look like it's seen much use though.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by David

Spiral, really no need for you to continue to rub this in. It was late when i responded and i simply misread you. One remark i can laugh with you, the second is unnecessary.
Thanks for the photos of these beautifully crafted daggers. I do question the assumption (not just on your part) that any dagger depicting the devil is necessarily a satanic ritual tool used in some dark rite. Sometimes art is just art. I think dealers are quick to put such a tag on these items because the concept of "evil" fascinates many and they think (correctly) that the items will command higher prices. Blades like the last one, IMO, have no distinct satanic symbolism. Skulls and snakes do not necessarily point to satanism. Skulls and skeletal forms have been used in art by many cultures over the centuries and are not necessarially negative images. Snakes aren't either for that matter and in many cases signify life and regeneration. The skull is a very common Mason symbol for one.
The inverted liberty torch is very interesting in your first example, but i wonder if it doesn't have more of a political reference than a spiritual one. It's placement between a winged caduseus legged demon and an owl, a symbol of wisdom is very intriguing. It would be nice to see some closer images of this. Doesn't look like it's seen much use though.

Originally Posted by David

Spiral, really no need for you to continue to rub this in. It was late when i responded and i simply misread you. One remark i can laugh with you, the second is unnecessary.
Thanks for the photos of these beautifully crafted daggers. I do question the assumption (not just on your part) that any dagger depicting the devil is necessarily a satanic ritual tool used in some dark rite. Sometimes art is just art. I think dealers are quick to put such a tag on these items because the concept of "evil" fascinates many and they think (correctly) that the items will command higher prices. Blades like the last one, IMO, have no distinct satanic symbolism. Skulls and snakes do not necessarily point to satanism. Skulls and skeletal forms have been used in art by many cultures over the centuries and are not necessarially negative images. Snakes aren't either for that matter and in many cases signify life and regeneration. The skull is a very common Mason symbol for one.
The inverted liberty torch is very interesting in your first example, but i wonder if it doesn't have more of a political reference than a spiritual one. It's placement between a winged caduseus legged demon and an owl, a symbol of wisdom is very intriguing. It would be nice to see some closer images of this. Doesn't look like it's seen much use though.

Yes Indeed sorry you took offence David it was early in the morning when i replied.

The first mention was a factual correction for you, I didnt imagine that would make you laugh, the second was meant to be the humour. Sorry that it fell flat for you. Written humour can be hard to interprit sometimes.

Religion & politics are very closely aligned i think, they are both often used by some to control others. I was under the impresion that what helped found many aristocratic satanist groups as a way of retaining the power they had lost to Politicians & clergy.

I would percieve the torches upside down as turning liberty on its head.

An owl is also a common satanic symbol , often refered to as moloch to whom human sacrifices are made.

I have further pictures of these daggers & others but without gaining the permision of the currant owners I am not prepared to post them.

i agree dealers like to make money, but both those mentioned are well known for thier expertise & in BRLs case especialy with American & European knives.

I am visiting a curator who specialises in theology,old occult,pagan, satanist etc. artifacts,books & symbolism next week for his veiw.

Since posting this here & elswere I have had a couple of offers from people who collect such items {or who have a "friend" who does in one case, whom seem in no doubt about what it is.}

I think the nature of the beast sends up a lot of denial from people.

Ive been researching this for 6 weeks & hoped someone here might actualy be able to add to the facts that i have been accumilating about these re. date & origin. Or be able to illustrate thier points against with other examples of such pieces & thier "christian group or fantasy piece" evidence.

Although numerous comments generaly from people totaly outside thier fields of expieriance or expertise are intresting I have yet to see anything of factual substance or even an awarness that such things exist!

Seems rather like wishfull thinking to me.

Perhaps an ethnographic arms forum wasnt the right place to post this.

Spiral

[Emanuel]

Hi Spiral,
On the last dagger you posted, does the helm visor actually swivel open and shut over the skeleton or is it just my impression? Very fine craftsmanship on these items.

Here's a thought about the "gipsy woman" dagger: if holding the dagger so the figure is seen upright, the church is upside down. In this case, she could be seen as dancing over the reversed church and mocking the Church. Gipsies are an image of chaos and anarchy I think, so perhaps the dagger represents the overturning of the Church by chaotic liberalism. It would fit the troubled times of the early 19th century, and could arguably be disguised as an artistic object reflecting literary sources - Hugo maybe.

Emanuel

[David]

Well actually Spiral, i laughed the first time and sorta said "duh!" to myself, so the second time around it was getting old. No offense really.
I think you may have misunderstood my position. I am not denying that satanic groups have and do exist. I do, however, think some of these blades may have been misinterpreted. I actually think people are more likely to jump to the conclusion that things are satanic, often when they are not. The early church, and to some extent the present one, would consider anything non-Christian to have a satanic root. The owl can be seen as a representative of Moloch, but for me it is a stretch to connect old pre-Christian gods with satanism even if they were rumored to perform human sacrifices.
I think it is very important to realize the source of the stories of satanic cults before we buy any of the infomation they present without a large grain of salt. No, this doesn't mean that i am in denial that such cults have and do exist, but i do seriously downplay the conspiratorial hype surrounding these stories. Groups were often labelled satanic by the church simply because they had gained too much power for the comfort level of the church and local governments. See the story of the knights Templars for instance. It was also said of them that initiates had to spit on and trample the cross and that they prayed to a head in a box called Baphomet. What the church and the government really wanted were all their fertile lands in the south of France. They also started the European banking system and many powerful people owed them money. I guess they must be satanists, eh? I have studied the occult and it's histories now for nearly 30 years, so perhaps i have a different perspective on it than most. I do know that things are not always what they seem nor what they would have us believe.

[Tim Simmons]

I cannot see anything scary or "satanic" in these knives. The images are just allegorical and mimic the late renaissance art styles and taste. They are just the Franklin Mint fantasy daggers of their day all be of very good quality. Similar quality of work can be found on late 19th century meat carving sets with rather more domestic imagery. IMHO.

[Tim Simmons]

Here are two late 16th century bronze pieces that show this late renaissance style. This style is in many ways a classical revival with some added vigor.



And finally a "satanic" candle stick made by Minton & Co 1859. A fine example of the 19th century renaissance revival. Put a black candle in it and we can all scream satanic abuse.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I cannot see anything scary or "satanic" in these knives. The images are just allegorical and mimic the late renaissance art styles and taste. They are just the Franklin Mint fantasy daggers of their day all be of very good quality. Similar quality of work can be found on late 19th century meat carving sets with rather more domestic imagery. IMHO.

I always find your veiws & opinions on evry item I have ever posted Tim, highly entertaining. thankyou for that.

i would be very concerned if you thought it looked like anything i thought it was.

Spiral

[spiral]

Originally Posted by David

Well actually Spiral, i laughed the first time and sorta said "duh!" to myself, so the second time around it was getting old. No offense really.
I think you may have misunderstood my position. I am not denying that satanic groups have and do exist. I do, however, think some of these blades may have been misinterpreted. I actually think people are more likely to jump to the conclusion that things are satanic, often when they are not. The early church, and to some extent the present one, would consider anything non-Christian to have a satanic root. The owl can be seen as a representative of Moloch, but for me it is a stretch to connect old pre-Christian gods with satanism even if they were rumored to perform human sacrifices.
I think it is very important to realize the source of the stories of satanic cults before we buy any of the infomation they present without a large grain of salt. No, this doesn't mean that i am in denial that such cults have and do exist, but i do seriously downplay the conspiratorial hype surrounding these stories. Groups were often labelled satanic by the church simply because they had gained too much power for the comfort level of the church and local governments. See the story of the knights Templars for instance. It was also said of them that initiates had to spit on and trample the cross and that they prayed to a head in a box called Baphomet. What the church and the government really wanted were all their fertile lands in the south of France. They also started the European banking system and many powerful people owed them money. I guess they must be satanists, eh? I have studied the occult and it's histories now for nearly 30 years, so perhaps i have a different perspective on it than most. I do know that things are not always what they seem nor what they would have us believe.

I agree with much of what you say. Particularily "I do know that things are not always what they seem nor what they would have us believe. "

I was reading Colin Wilsons stuff 30 years ago muyself, & much sinse but I have only been researching this for 6 weeks.

Its intresting some satanists & collectors of these see the owl as Moloch & you saw it as the owl of wisdom.

Indeed so much is open to interpritation.

Spiral

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by David

The owl can be seen as a representative of Moloch, but for me it is a stretch to connect old pre-Christian gods with satanism even if they were rumored to perform human sacrifices.

You bring up a very good point here and that is that many of the symbols seen in modern religion ( Christian or Satanic ) and modern societal use pre-date Christianity. The fish used by christianity supposedly before the cross and still into today is also a very ancient symbol used by other religions, such as Buddhists and Pagans. At the risk of upsetting some ( and I am Roman Catholic so I understand how some could be upset by this I hope they will not ) there are parrallels between parts of the mass and the pagan rituals that the church often knowing adopted to help with getting conversions. Aristaeus , from Greek Mythology, son of the god Apollo and the nymph Cyrene, was often represented as a youthful shepherd carrying a lamb. The head of the fish forming a mitre above the head of a man, was used to represent the fish god Dagon, Some attribute the mitre which the Pope wears to beginning here. A dove, sometimes with an olive branch in its mouth, which is supposed to represent peace or the Holy Spirit today, and which supposedly was taken from either the story of when Noah sent the dove from the ark and it came back with the olive twig; or the Dove descending on Christ at His baptism, before that it represented Juno, the queen of heaven. Even the cross can be seen used in other religions. I believe there are crosses as Hindu symbolism, in Babylon they were used to represent the worship of sun gods and some say it was not until Emperor Constantine that they were used for christianity. The upside down cross often again associated with satanism is in some circles called Peter's cross as St. Peter is said to have been crucified upside down

So again to get to the point I was speaking of before rambling. All symbolism, including or perhaps particularly that on weapons can and will be interpreted differently by different groups based on their context. We may not be able to establish the context or the symbolism until we know why and when the knife was made and we may not be able to tell where and why it was made until we understand the symbolism. Indeed a problem

Originally Posted by David

Groups were often labelled satanic by the church simply because they had gained too much power for the comfort level of the church and local governments.

There is also no question this is true. Such accusations were widely abused because the person was always guilty until proven innocent , which was difficult to do.


BTW to everyone here on all sides of this discussion ( Satanic, Pagan and Hunchback of Notre Dame) I must say a great job of debating the case is being done on all sides.


Spiral
IMHO the way the blade is attached would again point towards this being a ritual or decorative item and never really designed for much use.

[Emanuel]

Wouldn't that strange construction exclude use as a weapon - sacrificial or otherwise? The short fillet wouldn't hold the blade too well in a stab would it? In my mind this adds to the possibility of the dagger being an artistic/decorative object...or if intended for some cult ceremony then certainly only for show, not use? Do you know hoe the other daggers you posted were constructed?
I wonder why use such construction? The original blade would have had a tang no? I would surmise the creator of this piece took a broken blade he had at hand and gave it a new life as a romantic -or be it ceremonial/cult- object to be sold at greater value.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hi Spiral,
On the last dagger you posted, does the helm visor actually swivel open and shut over the skeleton or is it just my impression? Very fine craftsmanship on these items.

Here's a thought about the "gipsy woman" dagger: if holding the dagger so the figure is seen upright, the church is upside down. In this case, she could be seen as dancing over the reversed church and mocking the Church. Gipsies are an image of chaos and anarchy I think, so perhaps the dagger represents the overturning of the Church by chaotic liberalism. It would fit the troubled times of the early 19th century, and could arguably be disguised as an artistic object reflecting literary sources - Hugo maybe.

Emanuel

Yes indeed it does Emanuel if you look at the photos again you will see some with visor open, some closed.

Spiral

[Bill M]

My wife Anne just woke up and we read this post together. Having just seen the "Da Vinci Code" on DVD she decided that the woman is Sophia (Goddess of Wisdom and therefore Owls) about to sacrifice the male goat (Pan) to continue her bloodline.

I suggested that the Pan she (Anne) should be studying is the one to fry / sacrifice the Aeytheric Egg, or universal Ovum over easy for breakfast!

It is early in the morning here.

"Io Pan, Io Pan, Io Pan. Pan! Pan! Pan!" (Say it slowly, keep it Holy) -- A.Crowley

[spiral]

Great stuff chaps. A little more substance as we get further into the thread for sure!

I agree with Jim, Occult as a catch all term might be better than satanic.

We all seem to realise & agree this is a European figural knife. 19th century with an older blade.

The questian is whether the symbolism is occult or not.

The popular camp maintains & I agree one can potentialy align the Esmerelda, goat & tambourine to the image if one wishes. I certanly dont rule it out.

But it can also be percieved as A high priestess, goddess, whoever/whatever about to sacrifice the goat & catch the blood in the pan.


Sadley apart from the example Tim was good enough to share there has been littler of substance or fact about these cast Figural knives other than the photos Ive shared. So fan none with scabbards.

Here a further example of the French figural dagger i mentioned earlier that along with the preivios example clearly show the handle is held up right to percieve the scabbard.





& the previos example for your convience.



The church cathedral is clearly not Notre damne, due to numerous features including, spire,roofing shingling, etc.




& Notre damn to compare.



As Ive shown 19 th century figural knives are looked at hilt up scabbard down this clearly shows that the church, with it crosses & the added alter sticks are clearly turned upside down. Which clearly is turning the church on its head, which is quite symbolic of anti christian occult, black masses etc.

[spiral]

Here are a few more photos to illustrate some of the features in more detail.












It has been suggested to me a theaded bolt into the blade is known German construction of c.1850 to c.1875 period, but I have sadley not got other examples to share.Anyone else?

The tile/shingle appearance on the steeple could certanly have Germanic origins although it also reminds me of Scandanavion work .

So all in all as enjoyable & wide ranging as the "occult" discusian is it would be nice to find some hard evidence to refute my points that i have further illustrated for you. Regarding 19th century cast figural knives whether the occult type or just the custom gift work of wealthy powerfull europeans like the one Ive illustrated from the Wallace collection.


Spiral

[Yannis]

Originally Posted by spiral

The church cathedral is clearly not Notre damne, due to numerous features including, spire,roofing shingling, etc.

Sorry to disagree but IMHO it is Notre Dame. All the features are there except the roof. Count arches and windows, circles and columns. But it is scabbard, you don’t expect it to be with cubistic double tip, do you?

[David]

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

"Io Pan, Io Pan, Io Pan. Pan! Pan! Pan!" (Say it slowly, keep it Holy) -- A.Crowley

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Yannis

Sorry to disagree but IMHO it is Notre Dame. All the features are there except the roof. Count arches and windows, circles and columns. But it is scabbard, you don’t expect it to be with cubistic double tip, do you?

Dont be sorry, its ok with me. If I couldnt cope with opinions of others i wouldnt have ever joined this forum. We all have them after all.

I am sure you can write pages of opinions on many subjects, as I can, my previos post also layed out many factual points as well as my opinions. It would be nice if someone can do the same after all opinions are just that. whether mine or yours they are not any form of evidence in relation to this item.

It would be like asknig for my opnion abouts aboriginal weapons or swords of the congo, I would have an opinion , but because the reality is I have no expierience in those areas my opinion would be worthless for factual identification.


It appears so far no one here has any expierience of cast figural european daggers of the 19th century here ? whether occult or otherwise. .

Or any one ever owned such an example? got a book with photos in even?

Anyone? Anything of any substance? whatsoever?


Spiral

[Tim Simmons]

This is a 19th century Italian ? dagger. Swiss guard? Surely some sort of dress dagger for a religious order of knights. The quality of the last few daggers does help put the thread starter in the 19th cent Franklin mint category.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

This is a 19th century Italian ? dagger. Swiss guard? Surely some sort of dress dagger for a religious order of knights. The quality of the last few daggers does help put the thread starter in the 19th cent Franklin mint category.

Excelent Tim, I am relieved you regard my piece as "franklin mint"

I try not to comment on the quality of items you usualy show.

Thanks for the figural knife, photo as poor as it is it helps proove my point! the scabbard is viewed handle upright!

One can see that from the man figured on the scabbard.

excelent.

many thanks for supporting my case.

Spiral

[katana]

If we stick with the idea this dagger is 'Esmeralda themed' I believe further symbolism can be infered.

Esmeralda, is a gypsy, considered a heathen and 'god less' by the Parisians.

Frollo, a principle character, is a priest at Notre Dame, whom because of his carnal desires for Esmeralda, which she ignores, ends up being instrumental in her demise. This member of the church is shown to be weak, an abuser of his position and acts in an 'un-christian' manner towards her.

When Esmeralda first escapes her captors she is taken to Notre Dame to seek 'sanctuary', (whilst in the grounds of the church, the 'law' cannot apprehend her). But later the 'sanctuary' is rescinded and she loses the protection of the church, and is re-captured.

In effect, Esmeralda, an innocent party, is rejected by the 'Church' in her 'hour of need'. The priest whom should protect her, will only help if she 'concedes' to his 'carnal desires' and she was shunned by society as a heathen.
This could be why the symbolism of the hilt being in 'opposition' to the 'church' scabbard is noticeable and significant.

In a way Hugo was, perhaps, against what the 'church' had become.....and that it had lost its way from the Christian teachings that it was 'born from'.

Ironically, her execution could have been avoided if she had relented her belief in honesty and goodness..........if she had been personified as a 'Christian' she could well have been made a Saint

[katana]

Found two images of 19th-century French Satanistic ritual dagger......I personally am not convinced about the description ie 'satanistic'.

Total length 13 1/4", hilt 3 1/3" long. The cast brass hilt depicts a winged entity. Tops of the wings form horns around its head. The triangular blade is most likely from a socket bayonet (widely used in the French army up to c.1850)

The third Image is a 19 century French hunting short sword, double edged...the fullers look very similar to your dagger, blade length 20 3/4". Dated to the “ Napoleonic era"

[David]

Originally Posted by spiral

I am sure you can write pages of opinions on many subjects, as I can, my previos post also layed out many factual points as well as my opinions. It would be nice if someone can do the same after all opinions are just that. whether mine or yours they are not any form of evidence in relation to this item.

Forgive me Spiral, but while you have posted pictures and related a bit of French history, i fail to see anything in you writing that provides anything but opinion on the original intent of your dagger or, for that matter, any other dagger that has been pictured here. Any of these daggers could have been made purely as a form of artistic expression or with actual ritual intent. So far i have seen no provenence either way, so really it is ALL just opinion. There has been some rather fine deductive reasoning however, mostly pointing in the direction that your dagger has other than occult intent.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by David

Forgive me Spiral, but while you have posted pictures and related a bit of French history, i fail to see anything in you writing that provides anything but opinion on the original intent of your dagger or, for that matter, any other dagger that has been pictured here. Any of these daggers could have been made purely as a form of artistic expression or with actual ritual intent. So far i have seen no provenence either way, so really it is ALL just opinion. There has been some rather fine deductive reasoning however, mostly pointing in the direction that your dagger has other than occult intent.

As I said that my opinions have the same worth as others, that is the recognition of the truth. I can tell what is opinion & what isnt.Whether mine or others. Opinions are merly that, unless the come from a person familiar & expierinced with what is bieng discused. In this case a 19th century European cast Figural knife.

I was hoping that amongst the forumites there might be some one who could provide facts or evidence, about such as figural pieces in which the scabbard would be in the manner Jim first describded, before I questined him on it & offered further examples of Figural pieces, which so far all imply that the church is upside down. Just like the liberty torch on another exampale.

Your last sentance should earn you points with the eggy landlord but thats just gauranteed the kukri he wanted so much hell never get. {I can now see why the last seller made sure he never got it either ,even for 12,000 pans. a full 6 times as many as I got it for} excuse me, must be late at night or something. Must be thinking out loud.

The factual point of greatest worth from the photos ive posted is all the figural examples with figural scabbards are clearly veiwed handle up.

An upside down, church, crucifxes & alter candels, are symbols of satanism as your 30 years of study will inform you. {Or do you say an upside down crucifix is how it should be?}

Deduction of opinion is still just opinion, intresting yes but unless it comes from someone with expierience it would be like getting a koto katana judged by an African weapons collector. Intresting but possibly wrong & would be tootaly worthless as an appraisel.Whearas if Rich Stein if he had an opinion about it , it would have a much greater weight as he is expierienced in the subject.

As I said in the Rhino thread I always appreciate people who have had lots of hans on expeirience & study there subject in depth. {As I am sure you do with krisses or whatever it is you are into.}


Spiral

Ps.

After the discusian of fullers Heres a couple of fellers with a kukri with a rather well done fuller.



It definatly a keeper, same as this figural knife.

Spiral

[katana]

IF the inverted cross is truly a Satanic symbol......the Catholic Church has problems........


"Watson"
"Yes Holmes"
"The game is afoot..."

[David]

[QUOTE=spiral
Your last sentance should earn you points with the eggy landlord but thats just gauranteed the kukri he wanted so much hell never get. {I can now see why the last seller made sure he never got it either ,even for 12,000 pans. a full 6 times as many as I got it for} excuse me, must be late at night or something. Must be thinking out loud.

The factual point of greatest worth from the photos ive posted is all the figural examples with figural scabbards are clearly veiwed handle up.

An upside down, church, crucifxes & alter candels, are symbols of satanism as your 30 years of study will inform you. {Or do you say an upside down crucifix is how it should be?}[/QUOTE]

Well it must be later indeed, since i haven't the foggiest notion what you are on about in this first paragrah.
I am afraid that presenting 2 or 3 examples with the figural scabbards viewed handle up is hardly evidence that ALL figural scabbards are intended to be viewed this way. The only fact is that the few examples you have provided point this way. I still think that the church is oriented this way on your scabbard because it is the logical direction given the shape of the object depicted. It just makes sense that the steeple point should be the point of the scabbard. That is, however, merely opinion.
Since you harp on the years of my study, in my 30 yrs. of occult study i have never seen an upside down church used as a symbol of satanism. Certainly crosses have been used that way, but has already been pointed out, the inverse cross is also the cross of St. Peter, so it is merely a matter of perspective. The same can be said of the pentagram The owl is generally looked upon as a positive symbol in most western magical circles. I would also like to point out that occult magickal symbols are more often created in much less representational form to hide their true meanings from the uninitiated. Sigils and magickal or arcane alphabets and talismanic signs are more often used to empower ritual items. I see no such signs on any of these daggers.
If you look hard enough one can find 'satanists" everywhere. The church certain did a good job at it for centuries.

[David]

Thanks Wolviex, that just about nails it for me. This last dagger you have presented shows tha tfigurative daggers were being made at the time that illustrated literary themes. probably the creator of Spirals dagger found the title "Hunchback of Notre Dame" a bit to long to place on the blade.
I would only disagree with you that the images on all these other daggers are "evil" in nature. Death is a fact of life and i see nothing evil about images of skulls or skeletal forms. Snakes i have always seen as a postive symbol as they are in most cultures around the world. Owls we have discussed. Images of winged and/or horned demons can be seen in many different ways. The images of Pan and the Green Man were turned into images of the Devil by the church. Very early images of some angels are also horned. The horn is generally seen as a sign of power. Jews blow the shofar. Horn is highly prized by many cultures for a reason. My point is that evil is really in the eyes of the beholder here. Spiral wants to see satanists everywhere. It makes this dagger more valuable to him to think it was once owned by one. Frankly i find it to be very interesting regardless.
There are certainly other daggers shown in this thread that are much more obviously occult. But an assumption that they are therefore "satanic" in intent can only be made by those who lack a deeper understanding of occult matters. Occult matters are by their very nature hidden and often dark, in that they deal with a side of nature that is not usually embraced by the general public. People tend to fear what they don't understand. That doesn't necesarily make it evil.
Wolviex supports my thought that these occult daggers were most probably meant for show, or in some cases for the use of tracing sigils as a symbolic weapon of air in lodge style ceremonial magick. I seriously doubt they were ever employed as a means of sacrifice, animal or otherwise.

[wolviex]

Originally Posted by David

I would only disagree with you that the images on all these other daggers are "evil" in nature.

Thanks David.
Yes you maybe right and I won't dig deeper. My thought on images was just general. There are some images maybe not 'evil' but more fearsome like gargoyle/devil with great wings, skeleton in armour - well for me scary . But it depends on culture where it was made. For Europeans black is sad, and in India happy colour.

Regards!

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by wolviex

Thanks David.
Yes you maybe right and I won't dig deeper. My thought on images was just general. There are some images maybe not 'evil' but more fearsome like gargoyle/devil with great wings, skeleton in armour - well for me scary . But it depends on culture where it was made. For Europeans black is sad, and in India happy colour.

Regards!

Hi Wolviex,

In many cultures evil looking creatures are put up by the good guys to defend them from the real evil creatures OR to placate the evil creatures so they leave the good guys alone. I think that we see much more of this than we see people actually worshipping demonic spirits.

In Bali, for instance, offerings are made to demons that contain rotten foods because they think that is what the demons would like to have. Make the demons happy and they may leave you alone and also chase away other demons.

It is all in your perspective and frame of reference. For instance if you make friends with a vicious dog in your home, he will protect you. BUT to a person outside, your vicious dog may appear to be demonic.

Where black is a India color of happiness, white is their color for death.

It is very difficult to understand another culture's symbols without a deep study fo their culture, religion and history. Even then it can be terribly misunderstood. Even Margaret Mead made some mistakes.

Often, the actual natives themsleves don't understand time honored rituals and symbols. Reading a marvelous book, "Shields of Melanasia" where questions were asked about why certain devices and synbols are still being used. The natives don't know anymore. They say they use them because "they always have."

I am really enjoying this thread. I have learned a lot and am impressed (again) by the breadth, depth of knowledge and elucidation of the members here.

[Emanuel]

Hmm the great fact I was going to shatter your argument with ain't no good Spiral. First of, what I now found is a true Gothic dagger as in Mediaeval. Secondly it's ivory not cast...third it actually supports your argument, the figures are seen upright...so much for that. anyway here's the pic for interest...all the text and captions are in German so I can't give any info about it. It shows dragons which is indeed a satanic symbol in mediaeval Christian iconography, and some sort of Cerberus too.

Will keep looking for an appropriate cast 19th c. example...

Emanuel