Satanic dagger, Age & country of Origin?

David · 9th January 2007, 03:25 AM

Then again, the tormented faces could refer to gargoyles of Notre Dame or to the Hunchback himself.
I dug these images up. sorry they are so small.

spiral · 9th January 2007, 03:57 AM

Thanks David, Rhysmichael interesting points.

I just found this online passage which may be of intrest?

The first satanic cult which possibly existed was operated by Catherine La Voisin at the Court of the French monarch Louis XIV. Although some historians are skeptical, the documents of the inquiry by Nicholas de la Reynie, the Police Chief of the king -- who was not a particularly religious man but a rather cold and stubborn policeman -- published by the 19th century historian François Ravaisson-Mollien, make a persuasive case for the celebration of "Black Masses" (the term was coined by La Voisin herself) at the Court of Louis XIV. "Black Masses" were described as rituals mocking the Roman Catholic Mass, in which Catholic hosts were desecrated through sex rituals and children were occasionally sacrificed to the Devil in order to obtain power and love for the wealthy customers of La Voisin [2]. La Reynie's police effectively destroyed the cult, but the emerging press made the incident infamous for decades in Europe and copycat imitations surfaced during the 18th century and during the French Revolution. These episodes were connected by pious Catholic authors to the Revolution itself, which they believed had been masterminded by anti-Catholic Satanists.

The "gargoyle heads" as called under a lens are clearly not Gargoyles , but human faces one dejected & unhappy the other covered in boils, both wear Jewish or I would say more likely bishops skull caps.

I understand French & German satanist knives are well recorded from at least in the 3rd quarter of the 19th century. But certanly many are later.

Intresting images David, scenes of goat sacrifice with dagger & pan from "the devil rides out" seem more in keeping with such a clearly potentialy lethal design of blade.

Spiral

David · 9th January 2007, 04:34 AM

[QUOTE=spiralI understand French & German satanist knives are well recorded from at least in the 3rd quarter of the 19th century. But certanly many are later.l[/QUOTE]

Spiral, why "certainly"? I am not sure what you are basing this assuption on. Have you seen or do you have any links to photos of "satanic" blades that pre-date the late 19thC.

I am well aware of the stories of Catherine La Voisin, but much of her legend is just that and beyond any definable fact. She apparently claimed to have sacrificed 2500 children, but there was hardly a rash of missing children in her area during her run in France. The 'black mass" is not necessarily a satanic thing, it is just a rebelious anti-Christian thing. It doesn't necessarily require the belief in Satan as one's god nor the evil doings such as child sacrifice that the stories of satanism would have one believe were common practice for these cults. As i stated earlier "satanic" is a loaded term that is probably best left behind.
This could still be meant as a ritual weapon i am leaning more towards the Hunchback attribution.

Emanuel · 9th January 2007, 04:45 AM

Hi Spiral, cool knife.

I think the "Huntchback of Notre-Dame" link is quite strong. The church is a stylized depiction of Notre-Dame itself if you compare with David's picture and others: Three portals on the first level, one rose window in the central bay flanked by twin towers each with a two-lancet window within a blind arch on the second. The third level features a ballustrade in the central bay and two thin rectangular windows in each adjacent tower. These towers once had peaked roofs if I recall correctly and the tall roof in the middle is actually the spire above the crossing the church as it would be seen from the front. And the figure is the spitting image of Esmeralda, down to the locket with her baby shoe. The figures on the ends of the guard could be the huntchback himself and Dom Frolo, the priest who covetted Esmeralda. I guess a real romantic put the dagger together.

Emanuel

spiral · 9th January 2007, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hi Spiral, cool knife.

I think the "Huntchback of Notre-Dame" link is quite strong. The church is a stylized depiction of Notre-Dame itself if you compare with David's picture and others: Three portals on the first level, one rose window in the central bay flanked by twin towers each with a two-lancet window within a blind arch on the second. The third level features a ballustrade in the central bay and two thin rectangular windows in each adjacent tower. These towers once had peaked roofs if I recall correctly and the tall roof in the middle is actually the spire above the crossing the church as it would be seen from the front. And the figure is the spitting image of Esmeralda, down to the locket with her baby shoe. The figures on the ends of the guard could be the huntchback himself and Dom Frolo, the priest who covetted Esmeralda. I guess a real romantic put the dagger together.

Emanuel

Thankyou Manolo, Having spent days looking at photos of European churches & cathedrals online & having prioviosly visited Notre Damne , I agree the scabbards appearance shows many similarities, but if you compare it to many French & some Scandanavien,German & Swiss churches you will see many other similarities.

For instance Some one spent many hours chasing a particilar tile or shingle shape on the roof of this scabbards, which obviously doesnt match Notre Damn.

When one looks for Similarities in Churches they are easy to find, to be objective one needs to look for the differences as well.

Spiral

spiral · 9th January 2007, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Spiral, why "certainly"? I am not sure what you are basing this assuption on. Have you seen or do you have any links to photos of "satanic" blades that pre-date the late 19thC.

As i stated earlier "satanic" is a loaded term that is probably best left behind.
This could still be meant as a ritual weapon i am leaning more towards the Hunchback attribution.

David, In Archaological, calander & historical terms "later" means more recently, not older.

Spiral

Jim McDougall · 9th January 2007, 04:48 AM

Yikes, I had no idea there was such knowledge on the 'black arts' here!!

Scary stuff!!
Actually we have had discussions on these esoteric knives termed 'athame' about seven years ago, and discussions got pretty interesting. The term athame is thought to possibly derive from 'attame' (Fr.=to cut or pierce) and it is noted that 'athe' (Gk.=Godless), however there is no agreed upon etymological reference as far as I know.
Interestingly the variant term 'arthame' seems to derive from the term used to refer to the knife in a 1930's horror movie "The Master of Crabs" !
(I'm still choking on dust from dragging out these old notes from those discussions years ago!

Apparantly the concept of the athame is ceremonial, and supposedly its use is much like that of the Tibetan phurbu in ethereal sense. It is theoretically an extension of self and used to direct the flow of energy or will, to invoke or banish. It is used to guide energy from self to the circle etc. and so on in the complexities of these wiccan ceremonies. Naturally in earlier times there is likely some sacrificial use implicated, but those situations are avoided in most explanatory information.

As mentioned, I had noted that I had thought these decorated scabbards were to be viewed point up, but must admit that although I had seen some reference somewhere with comments to that effect concerning looking at the sword, I honestly cannot relocate that item. Actually, I simply considered the structure of the church and obviously the doors had to be shown at the wider part of the scabbard, while the peak of the church would narrow toward the tip or point. It would seem silly to think that the doors would be seen upside down, on the roof ?(reminds me of the kids game with interlocked fingers about the church and steeple, of course I always got it wrong and my people were on the roof!!

Also, in discussions of the sword, the blade is often termed the 'root' of the blade, thus at the hand, and grows upward. In edged weapon esoterica, the Indian katar is often decorated with the 'kundalini' flame, which originates at the root of the blade, and burns upward, thus the blade would be viewed point upward. I believe these were the basis of my comment.

In finally looking at the Holbein daggers I mentioned, the decoration is shown in linear, that is viewed sideways ,so it would seem there is no set manner in viewing a scabbard as I had suggested. I apologize for my assumption and for the unsupported statement.

Returning to the dagger, it seems that about mid 16th century, decorative sheath designs began to become popular, most notably the Holbein examples I have mentioned. Apparantly Hans Holbein (the younger) published his book "The Dance of Death" in Lyons c.1523, and created scabbards with macabre theme based on his drawings. Later other examples took scenes from Roman and Swiss history as well as Old Testament themes. It would seem that this decorative theme motif on daggers and sheaths extended through Europe, and this example, though certainly much later of course, is carrying out its theme from literary sources in the same manner.

Best regards,
Jim

Emanuel · 9th January 2007, 04:56 AM

Jim, David and RhysMichael, fantastic posts! You got me reading all about Wiccans now

I wonder how much of the witch craze of the 16th-17th centuries was based on actual witch/satanic convents and how much on poor old women who knew a great deal of botany and medicine.
Regards,
Emanuel

spiral · 9th January 2007, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Yikes, I had no idea there was such knowledge on the 'black arts' here!!

Scary stuff!!

As mentioned, I had noted that I had thought these decorated scabbards were to be viewed point up, but must admit that although I had seen some reference somewhere with comments to that effect concerning looking at the sword, I honestly cannot relocate that item. Actually, I simply considered the structure of the church and obviously the doors had to be shown at the wider part of the scabbard, while the peak of the church would narrow toward the tip or point. It would seem silly to think that the doors would be seen upside down, on the roof ?(reminds me of the kids game with interlocked fingers about the church and steeple, of course I always got it wrong and my people were on the roof!!

Also, in discussions of the sword, the blade is often termed the 'root' of the blade, thus at the hand, and grows upward. In edged weapon esoterica, the Indian katar is often decorated with the 'kundalini' flame, which originates at the root of the blade, and burns upward, thus the blade would be viewed point upward. I believe these were the basis of my comment.

In finally looking at the Holbein daggers I mentioned, the decoration is shown in linear, that is viewed sideways ,so it would seem there is no set manner in viewing a scabbard as I had suggested. I apologize for my assumption and for the unsupported statement.

Returning to the dagger, it seems that about mid 16th century, decorative sheath designs began to become popular, most notably the Holbein examples I have mentioned. Apparantly Hans Holbein (the younger) published his book "The Dance of Death" in Lyons c.1523, and created scabbards with macabre theme based on his drawings. Later other examples took scenes from Roman and Swiss history as well as Old Testament themes. It would seem that this decorative theme motif on daggers and sheaths extended through Europe, and this example, though certainly much later of course, is carrying out its theme from literary sources in the same manner.

Best regards,
Jim

Thankyou Jim, intresting stuff! Thankyou for taking the time.

Although the blade is liklely to be originaly from The Holbien period, i am sure the scabbord & handle are later.

The closet things I can find {as mentioned} in exotic cast handle pieces, is in the wallace collection that was a gift from Napolean III to the 4th Marques in 1860.

& the of course the 1871 Satanic knife brokered by Bernard Levine some years ago for $10,000.

Which shows the satanic motifs on the scabbard the right way up when the figural handle is upright. {which after all seems the logical way to study a figural piece.} But the signs of Liberty upside down.

Both of which are clearly veiwed handle upright.

For Wolviex & others who clearly havent seen such similar things heres 2 other examples.

Another spiecimien,

From Liongate Arms & armour. http://www.antiqueswords.com/mw57.htm

& a "later" example. {Which means more recently for those who were unaware.

}

Spiral

David · 9th January 2007, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

& a "later" example. {Which means more recently for those who were unaware.

}

Spiral, really no need for you to continue to rub this in. It was late when i responded and i simply misread you. One remark i can laugh with you, the second is unnecessary.
Thanks for the photos of these beautifully crafted daggers. I do question the assumption (not just on your part) that any dagger depicting the devil is necessarily a satanic ritual tool used in some dark rite. Sometimes art is just art. I think dealers are quick to put such a tag on these items because the concept of "evil" fascinates many and they think (correctly) that the items will command higher prices. Blades like the last one, IMO, have no distinct satanic symbolism. Skulls and snakes do not necessarily point to satanism. Skulls and skeletal forms have been used in art by many cultures over the centuries and are not necessarially negative images. Snakes aren't either for that matter and in many cases signify life and regeneration. The skull is a very common Mason symbol for one.
The inverted liberty torch is very interesting in your first example, but i wonder if it doesn't have more of a political reference than a spiritual one. It's placement between a winged caduseus legged demon and an owl, a symbol of wisdom is very intriguing. It would be nice to see some closer images of this. Doesn't look like it's seen much use though.

spiral · 9th January 2007, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Spiral, really no need for you to continue to rub this in. It was late when i responded and i simply misread you. One remark i can laugh with you, the second is unnecessary.
Thanks for the photos of these beautifully crafted daggers. I do question the assumption (not just on your part) that any dagger depicting the devil is necessarily a satanic ritual tool used in some dark rite. Sometimes art is just art. I think dealers are quick to put such a tag on these items because the concept of "evil" fascinates many and they think (correctly) that the items will command higher prices. Blades like the last one, IMO, have no distinct satanic symbolism. Skulls and snakes do not necessarily point to satanism. Skulls and skeletal forms have been used in art by many cultures over the centuries and are not necessarially negative images. Snakes aren't either for that matter and in many cases signify life and regeneration. The skull is a very common Mason symbol for one.
The inverted liberty torch is very interesting in your first example, but i wonder if it doesn't have more of a political reference than a spiritual one. It's placement between a winged caduseus legged demon and an owl, a symbol of wisdom is very intriguing. It would be nice to see some closer images of this. Doesn't look like it's seen much use though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Spiral, really no need for you to continue to rub this in. It was late when i responded and i simply misread you. One remark i can laugh with you, the second is unnecessary.
Thanks for the photos of these beautifully crafted daggers. I do question the assumption (not just on your part) that any dagger depicting the devil is necessarily a satanic ritual tool used in some dark rite. Sometimes art is just art. I think dealers are quick to put such a tag on these items because the concept of "evil" fascinates many and they think (correctly) that the items will command higher prices. Blades like the last one, IMO, have no distinct satanic symbolism. Skulls and snakes do not necessarily point to satanism. Skulls and skeletal forms have been used in art by many cultures over the centuries and are not necessarially negative images. Snakes aren't either for that matter and in many cases signify life and regeneration. The skull is a very common Mason symbol for one.
The inverted liberty torch is very interesting in your first example, but i wonder if it doesn't have more of a political reference than a spiritual one. It's placement between a winged caduseus legged demon and an owl, a symbol of wisdom is very intriguing. It would be nice to see some closer images of this. Doesn't look like it's seen much use though.

Yes Indeed sorry you took offence David it was early in the morning when i replied.

The first mention was a factual correction for you, I didnt imagine that would make you laugh, the second was meant to be the humour. Sorry that it fell flat for you. Written humour can be hard to interprit sometimes.

Religion & politics are very closely aligned i think, they are both often used by some to control others. I was under the impresion that what helped found many aristocratic satanist groups as a way of retaining the power they had lost to Politicians & clergy.

I would percieve the torches upside down as turning liberty on its head.

An owl is also a common satanic symbol , often refered to as moloch to whom human sacrifices are made.

I have further pictures of these daggers & others but without gaining the permision of the currant owners I am not prepared to post them.

i agree dealers like to make money, but both those mentioned are well known for thier expertise & in BRLs case especialy with American & European knives.

I am visiting a curator who specialises in theology,old occult,pagan, satanist etc. artifacts,books & symbolism next week for his veiw.

Since posting this here & elswere I have had a couple of offers from people who collect such items {or who have a "friend" who does in one case, whom seem in no doubt about what it is.}

I think the nature of the beast sends up a lot of denial from people.

Ive been researching this for 6 weeks & hoped someone here might actualy be able to add to the facts that i have been accumilating about these re. date & origin. Or be able to illustrate thier points against with other examples of such pieces & thier "christian group or fantasy piece" evidence.

Although numerous comments generaly from people totaly outside thier fields of expieriance or expertise are intresting I have yet to see anything of factual substance or even an awarness that such things exist!

Seems rather like wishfull thinking to me.

Perhaps an ethnographic arms forum wasnt the right place to post this.

Spiral

Emanuel · 9th January 2007, 04:27 PM

Hi Spiral,
On the last dagger you posted, does the helm visor actually swivel open and shut over the skeleton or is it just my impression? Very fine craftsmanship on these items.

Here's a thought about the "gipsy woman" dagger: if holding the dagger so the figure is seen upright, the church is upside down. In this case, she could be seen as dancing over the reversed church and mocking the Church. Gipsies are an image of chaos and anarchy I think, so perhaps the dagger represents the overturning of the Church by chaotic liberalism. It would fit the troubled times of the early 19th century, and could arguably be disguised as an artistic object reflecting literary sources - Hugo maybe.

Emanuel

Bill M · 10th January 2007, 01:22 PM

My wife Anne just woke up and we read this post together. Having just seen the "Da Vinci Code" on DVD she decided

that the woman is Sophia (Goddess of Wisdom and therefore Owls) about to sacrifice the male goat (Pan) to continue her bloodline.

I suggested that the Pan she (Anne) should be studying is the one to fry / sacrifice the Aeytheric Egg, or universal Ovum over easy for breakfast!

It is early in the morning here.

"Io Pan, Io Pan, Io Pan. Pan! Pan! Pan!" (Say it slowly, keep it Holy) -- A.Crowley

spiral · 10th January 2007, 02:51 PM

Great stuff chaps. A little more substance as we get further into the thread for sure!

I agree with Jim, Occult as a catch all term might be better than satanic.

We all seem to realise & agree this is a European figural knife. 19th century with an older blade.

The questian is whether the symbolism is occult or not.

The popular camp maintains & I agree one can potentialy align the Esmerelda, goat & tambourine to the image if one wishes. I certanly dont rule it out.

But it can also be percieved as A high priestess, goddess, whoever/whatever about to sacrifice the goat & catch the blood in the pan.

Sadley apart from the example Tim was good enough to share there has been littler of substance or fact about these cast Figural knives other than the photos Ive shared. So fan none with scabbards.

Here a further example of the French figural dagger i mentioned earlier that along with the preivios example clearly show the handle is held up right to percieve the scabbard.

& the previos example for your convience.

The church cathedral is clearly not Notre damne, due to numerous features including, spire,roofing shingling, etc.

& Notre damn to compare.

As Ive shown 19 th century figural knives are looked at hilt up scabbard down this clearly shows that the church, with it crosses & the added alter sticks are clearly turned upside down. Which clearly is turning the church on its head, which is quite symbolic of anti christian occult, black masses etc.

spiral · 10th January 2007, 02:51 PM

Here are a few more photos to illustrate some of the features in more detail.

It has been suggested to me a theaded bolt into the blade is known German construction of c.1850 to c.1875 period, but I have sadley not got other examples to share.Anyone else?

The tile/shingle appearance on the steeple could certanly have Germanic origins although it also reminds me of Scandanavion work .

So all in all as enjoyable & wide ranging as the "occult" discusian is it would be nice to find some hard evidence to refute my points that i have further illustrated for you. Regarding 19th century cast figural knives whether the occult type or just the custom gift work of wealthy powerfull europeans like the one Ive illustrated from the Wallace collection.

Spiral

Yannis · 10th January 2007, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

The church cathedral is clearly not Notre damne, due to numerous features including, spire,roofing shingling, etc.

Sorry to disagree but IMHO it is Notre Dame. All the features are there except the roof. Count arches and windows, circles and columns. But it is scabbard, you don’t expect it to be with cubistic double tip, do you?

David · 10th January 2007, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

"Io Pan, Io Pan, Io Pan. Pan! Pan! Pan!" (Say it slowly, keep it Holy) -- A.Crowley

spiral · 10th January 2007, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yannis

Sorry to disagree but IMHO it is Notre Dame. All the features are there except the roof. Count arches and windows, circles and columns. But it is scabbard, you don’t expect it to be with cubistic double tip, do you?

Dont be sorry, its ok with me. If I couldnt cope with opinions of others i wouldnt have ever joined this forum. We all have them after all.

I am sure you can write pages of opinions on many subjects, as I can, my previos post also layed out many factual points as well as my opinions. It would be nice if someone can do the same after all opinions are just that. whether mine or yours they are not any form of evidence in relation to this item.

It would be like asknig for my opnion abouts aboriginal weapons or swords of the congo, I would have an opinion , but because the reality is I have no expierience in those areas my opinion would be worthless for factual identification.

It appears so far no one here has any expierience of cast figural european daggers of the 19th century here ? whether occult or otherwise. .

Or any one ever owned such an example? got a book with photos in even?

Anyone? Anything of any substance? whatsoever?

Spiral

David · 11th January 2007, 02:05 PM

Thanks Wolviex, that just about nails it for me. This last dagger you have presented shows tha tfigurative daggers were being made at the time that illustrated literary themes. probably the creator of Spirals dagger found the title "Hunchback of Notre Dame" a bit to long to place on the blade.

I would only disagree with you that the images on all these other daggers are "evil" in nature. Death is a fact of life and i see nothing evil about images of skulls or skeletal forms. Snakes i have always seen as a postive symbol as they are in most cultures around the world. Owls we have discussed. Images of winged and/or horned demons can be seen in many different ways. The images of Pan and the Green Man were turned into images of the Devil by the church. Very early images of some angels are also horned. The horn is generally seen as a sign of power. Jews blow the shofar. Horn is highly prized by many cultures for a reason. My point is that evil is really in the eyes of the beholder here. Spiral wants to see satanists everywhere. It makes this dagger more valuable to him to think it was once owned by one. Frankly i find it to be very interesting regardless.

There are certainly other daggers shown in this thread that are much more obviously occult. But an assumption that they are therefore "satanic" in intent can only be made by those who lack a deeper understanding of occult matters. Occult matters are by their very nature hidden and often dark, in that they deal with a side of nature that is not usually embraced by the general public. People tend to fear what they don't understand. That doesn't necesarily make it evil.
Wolviex supports my thought that these occult daggers were most probably meant for show, or in some cases for the use of tracing sigils as a symbolic weapon of air in lodge style ceremonial magick. I seriously doubt they were ever employed as a means of sacrifice, animal or otherwise.

wolviex · 11th January 2007, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I would only disagree with you that the images on all these other daggers are "evil" in nature.

Thanks David.
Yes you maybe right and I won't dig deeper. My thought on images was just general. There are some images maybe not 'evil' but more fearsome like gargoyle/devil with great wings, skeleton in armour - well for me scary

. But it depends on culture where it was made. For Europeans black is sad, and in India happy colour.

Regards!

Bill M · 11th January 2007, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolviex

Thanks David.
Yes you maybe right and I won't dig deeper. My thought on images was just general. There are some images maybe not 'evil' but more fearsome like gargoyle/devil with great wings, skeleton in armour - well for me scary

. But it depends on culture where it was made. For Europeans black is sad, and in India happy colour.

Regards!

Hi Wolviex,

In many cultures evil looking creatures are put up by the good guys to defend them from the real evil creatures OR to placate the evil creatures so they leave the good guys alone. I think that we see much more of this than we see people actually worshipping demonic spirits.

In Bali, for instance, offerings are made to demons that contain rotten foods because they think that is what the demons would like to have. Make the demons happy and they may leave you alone and also chase away other demons.

It is all in your perspective and frame of reference. For instance if you make friends with a vicious dog in your home, he will protect you. BUT to a person outside, your vicious dog may appear to be demonic.

Where black is a India color of happiness, white is their color for death.

It is very difficult to understand another culture's symbols without a deep study fo their culture, religion and history. Even then it can be terribly misunderstood. Even Margaret Mead made some mistakes.

Often, the actual natives themsleves don't understand time honored rituals and symbols. Reading a marvelous book, "Shields of Melanasia" where questions were asked about why certain devices and synbols are still being used. The natives don't know anymore. They say they use them because "they always have."

I am really enjoying this thread. I have learned a lot and am impressed (again) by the breadth, depth of knowledge and elucidation of the members here.

spiral · 11th January 2007, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Thanks Wolviex, that just about nails it for me. This last dagger you have presented shows tha tfigurative daggers were being made at the time that illustrated literary themes. probably the creator of Spirals dagger found the title "Hunchback of Notre Dame" a bit to long to place on the blade.

I would only disagree with you that the images on all these other daggers are "evil" in nature. Death is a fact of life and i see nothing evil about images of skulls or skeletal forms. Snakes i have always seen as a postive symbol as they are in most cultures around the world. Owls we have discussed. Images of winged and/or horned demons can be seen in many different ways. The images of Pan and the Green Man were turned into images of the Devil by the church. Very early images of some angels are also horned. The horn is generally seen as a sign of power. Jews blow the shofar. Horn is highly prized by many cultures for a reason. My point is that evil is really in the eyes of the beholder here. Spiral wants to see satanists everywhere. It makes this dagger more valuable to him to think it was once owned by one. Frankly i find it to be very interesting regardless.

There are certainly other daggers shown in this thread that are much more obviously occult. But an assumption that they are therefore "satanic" in intent can only be made by those who lack a deeper understanding of occult matters. Occult matters are by their very nature hidden and often dark, in that they deal with a side of nature that is not usually embraced by the general public. People tend to fear what they don't understand. That doesn't necesarily make it evil.
Wolviex supports my thought that these occult daggers were most probably meant for show, or in some cases for the use of tracing sigils as a symbolic weapon of air in lodge style ceremonial magick. I seriously doubt they were ever employed as a means of sacrifice, animal or otherwise.

Re. "Spiral wants to see satanists everywhere."

That is tottaly & radicaly mistaken veiw of me, without foundation or substance. Although I realise judging someone so arbritarily from are limeted online encounters could easily allow for such errors.

I work in fields that fully understand human projection, transferance etc. & although Gestalt in nature apprecite that evidence is usefull when looking at peoples opinions especialy those that have roots to thier childhoods.

Spiral

Bill M · 11th January 2007, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Re. "Spiral wants to see satanists everywhere."

That is tottaly & radicaly mistaken veiw of me, without foundation or substance. Although I realise judging someone so arbritarily from are limeted online encounters could easily allow for such errors.Spiral

Spiral,

I think that you are mistaking David's wry sense of humor (humour) here. In written communication we miss a great deal. Tempo, intonation, body language which are the major elements in communication.

Maybe we can cut each other a little slack?

9th January 2007, 03:25 AM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Then again, the tormented faces could refer to gargoyles of Notre Dame or to the Hunchback himself. I dug these images up. sorry they are so small. Attached Images

9th January 2007, 04:45 AM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Spiral, cool knife. I think the "Huntchback of Notre-Dame" link is quite strong. The church is a stylized depiction of Notre-Dame itself if you compare with David's picture and others: Three portals on the first level, one rose window in the central bay flanked by twin towers each with a two-lancet window within a blind arch on the second. The third level features a ballustrade in the central bay and two thin rectangular windows in each adjacent tower. These towers once had peaked roofs if I recall correctly and the tall roof in the middle is actually the spire above the crossing the church as it would be seen from the front. And the figure is the spitting image of Esmeralda, down to the locket with her baby shoe. The figures on the ends of the guard could be the huntchback himself and Dom Frolo, the priest who covetted Esmeralda. I guess a real romantic put the dagger together. Emanuel Attached Images

9th January 2007, 03:57 AM	#2
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thanks David, Rhysmichael interesting points. I just found this online passage which may be of intrest? The first satanic cult which possibly existed was operated by Catherine La Voisin at the Court of the French monarch Louis XIV. Although some historians are skeptical, the documents of the inquiry by Nicholas de la Reynie, the Police Chief of the king -- who was not a particularly religious man but a rather cold and stubborn policeman -- published by the 19th century historian François Ravaisson-Mollien, make a persuasive case for the celebration of "Black Masses" (the term was coined by La Voisin herself) at the Court of Louis XIV. "Black Masses" were described as rituals mocking the Roman Catholic Mass, in which Catholic hosts were desecrated through sex rituals and children were occasionally sacrificed to the Devil in order to obtain power and love for the wealthy customers of La Voisin [2]. La Reynie's police effectively destroyed the cult, but the emerging press made the incident infamous for decades in Europe and copycat imitations surfaced during the 18th century and during the French Revolution. These episodes were connected by pious Catholic authors to the Revolution itself, which they believed had been masterminded by anti-Catholic Satanists. The "gargoyle heads" as called under a lens are clearly not Gargoyles , but human faces one dejected & unhappy the other covered in boils, both wear Jewish or I would say more likely bishops skull caps. I understand French & German satanist knives are well recorded from at least in the 3rd quarter of the 19th century. But certanly many are later. Intresting images David, scenes of goat sacrifice with dagger & pan from "the devil rides out" seem more in keeping with such a clearly potentialy lethal design of blade. Spiral

9th January 2007, 04:34 AM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	[QUOTE=spiralI understand French & German satanist knives are well recorded from at least in the 3rd quarter of the 19th century. But certanly many are later.l[/QUOTE] Spiral, why "certainly"? I am not sure what you are basing this assuption on. Have you seen or do you have any links to photos of "satanic" blades that pre-date the late 19thC. I am well aware of the stories of Catherine La Voisin, but much of her legend is just that and beyond any definable fact. She apparently claimed to have sacrificed 2500 children, but there was hardly a rash of missing children in her area during her run in France. The 'black mass" is not necessarily a satanic thing, it is just a rebelious anti-Christian thing. It doesn't necessarily require the belief in Satan as one's god nor the evil doings such as child sacrifice that the stories of satanism would have one believe were common practice for these cults. As i stated earlier "satanic" is a loaded term that is probably best left behind. This could still be meant as a ritual weapon i am leaning more towards the Hunchback attribution.

9th January 2007, 04:48 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Yikes, I had no idea there was such knowledge on the 'black arts' here!! Scary stuff!! Actually we have had discussions on these esoteric knives termed 'athame' about seven years ago, and discussions got pretty interesting. The term athame is thought to possibly derive from 'attame' (Fr.=to cut or pierce) and it is noted that 'athe' (Gk.=Godless), however there is no agreed upon etymological reference as far as I know. Interestingly the variant term 'arthame' seems to derive from the term used to refer to the knife in a 1930's horror movie "The Master of Crabs" ! (I'm still choking on dust from dragging out these old notes from those discussions years ago! Apparantly the concept of the athame is ceremonial, and supposedly its use is much like that of the Tibetan phurbu in ethereal sense. It is theoretically an extension of self and used to direct the flow of energy or will, to invoke or banish. It is used to guide energy from self to the circle etc. and so on in the complexities of these wiccan ceremonies. Naturally in earlier times there is likely some sacrificial use implicated, but those situations are avoided in most explanatory information. As mentioned, I had noted that I had thought these decorated scabbards were to be viewed point up, but must admit that although I had seen some reference somewhere with comments to that effect concerning looking at the sword, I honestly cannot relocate that item. Actually, I simply considered the structure of the church and obviously the doors had to be shown at the wider part of the scabbard, while the peak of the church would narrow toward the tip or point. It would seem silly to think that the doors would be seen upside down, on the roof ?(reminds me of the kids game with interlocked fingers about the church and steeple, of course I always got it wrong and my people were on the roof!! Also, in discussions of the sword, the blade is often termed the 'root' of the blade, thus at the hand, and grows upward. In edged weapon esoterica, the Indian katar is often decorated with the 'kundalini' flame, which originates at the root of the blade, and burns upward, thus the blade would be viewed point upward. I believe these were the basis of my comment. In finally looking at the Holbein daggers I mentioned, the decoration is shown in linear, that is viewed sideways ,so it would seem there is no set manner in viewing a scabbard as I had suggested. I apologize for my assumption and for the unsupported statement. Returning to the dagger, it seems that about mid 16th century, decorative sheath designs began to become popular, most notably the Holbein examples I have mentioned. Apparantly Hans Holbein (the younger) published his book "The Dance of Death" in Lyons c.1523, and created scabbards with macabre theme based on his drawings. Later other examples took scenes from Roman and Swiss history as well as Old Testament themes. It would seem that this decorative theme motif on daggers and sheaths extended through Europe, and this example, though certainly much later of course, is carrying out its theme from literary sources in the same manner. Best regards, Jim

9th January 2007, 04:56 AM	#8
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Jim, David and RhysMichael, fantastic posts! You got me reading all about Wiccans now I wonder how much of the witch craze of the 16th-17th centuries was based on actual witch/satanic convents and how much on poor old women who knew a great deal of botany and medicine. Regards, Emanuel

9th January 2007, 04:27 PM	#12
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Spiral, On the last dagger you posted, does the helm visor actually swivel open and shut over the skeleton or is it just my impression? Very fine craftsmanship on these items. Here's a thought about the "gipsy woman" dagger: if holding the dagger so the figure is seen upright, the church is upside down. In this case, she could be seen as dancing over the reversed church and mocking the Church. Gipsies are an image of chaos and anarchy I think, so perhaps the dagger represents the overturning of the Church by chaotic liberalism. It would fit the troubled times of the early 19th century, and could arguably be disguised as an artistic object reflecting literary sources - Hugo maybe. Emanuel

10th January 2007, 01:22 PM	#13
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	My wife Anne just woke up and we read this post together. Having just seen the "Da Vinci Code" on DVD she decided that the woman is Sophia (Goddess of Wisdom and therefore Owls) about to sacrifice the male goat (Pan) to continue her bloodline. I suggested that the Pan she (Anne) should be studying is the one to fry / sacrifice the Aeytheric Egg, or universal Ovum over easy for breakfast! It is early in the morning here. "Io Pan, Io Pan, Io Pan. Pan! Pan! Pan!" (Say it slowly, keep it Holy) -- A.Crowley

10th January 2007, 02:51 PM	#14
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Great stuff chaps. A little more substance as we get further into the thread for sure! I agree with Jim, Occult as a catch all term might be better than satanic. We all seem to realise & agree this is a European figural knife. 19th century with an older blade. The questian is whether the symbolism is occult or not. The popular camp maintains & I agree one can potentialy align the Esmerelda, goat & tambourine to the image if one wishes. I certanly dont rule it out. But it can also be percieved as A high priestess, goddess, whoever/whatever about to sacrifice the goat & catch the blood in the pan. Sadley apart from the example Tim was good enough to share there has been littler of substance or fact about these cast Figural knives other than the photos Ive shared. So fan none with scabbards. Here a further example of the French figural dagger i mentioned earlier that along with the preivios example clearly show the handle is held up right to percieve the scabbard. & the previos example for your convience. The church cathedral is clearly not Notre damne, due to numerous features including, spire,roofing shingling, etc. & Notre damn to compare. As Ive shown 19 th century figural knives are looked at hilt up scabbard down this clearly shows that the church, with it crosses & the added alter sticks are clearly turned upside down. Which clearly is turning the church on its head, which is quite symbolic of anti christian occult, black masses etc.

11th January 2007, 02:05 PM	#19
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Thanks Wolviex, that just about nails it for me. This last dagger you have presented shows tha tfigurative daggers were being made at the time that illustrated literary themes. probably the creator of Spirals dagger found the title "Hunchback of Notre Dame" a bit to long to place on the blade. I would only disagree with you that the images on all these other daggers are "evil" in nature. Death is a fact of life and i see nothing evil about images of skulls or skeletal forms. Snakes i have always seen as a postive symbol as they are in most cultures around the world. Owls we have discussed. Images of winged and/or horned demons can be seen in many different ways. The images of Pan and the Green Man were turned into images of the Devil by the church. Very early images of some angels are also horned. The horn is generally seen as a sign of power. Jews blow the shofar. Horn is highly prized by many cultures for a reason. My point is that evil is really in the eyes of the beholder here. Spiral wants to see satanists everywhere. It makes this dagger more valuable to him to think it was once owned by one. Frankly i find it to be very interesting regardless. There are certainly other daggers shown in this thread that are much more obviously occult. But an assumption that they are therefore "satanic" in intent can only be made by those who lack a deeper understanding of occult matters. Occult matters are by their very nature hidden and often dark, in that they deal with a side of nature that is not usually embraced by the general public. People tend to fear what they don't understand. That doesn't necesarily make it evil. Wolviex supports my thought that these occult daggers were most probably meant for show, or in some cases for the use of tracing sigils as a symbolic weapon of air in lodge style ceremonial magick. I seriously doubt they were ever employed as a means of sacrifice, animal or otherwise.