Satanic dagger, Age & country of Origin?

David · 8th January 2007, 09:04 PM

Agreed. The crosses are upside down because the church is, This is the natural position since the steeple shape follows the scabbard. I reject terms like "satanist" because they are very loaded and inaccurate. Satanism is a modern phenomenon, like the Church of Satan or the Temple of Set. Frankly i find it hard to take these guys too seriously.

In the old days anything non-Christian was considered to be of satan, but i think you would be hard pressed to find any actual satanic cults that were organized to the level that they would create such a work as this dagger for their uses. I have quite a bit of experience with old pagan symbols, but would not consider them to be "satanic" in nature...even the ones that feature horned gods and inverted pentagrams. This does appear to be a ritual dagger of some sort and i would image it might be late 19th to early 20th century.
The term athame really doesn'y come into any serious usage until the neo-pagan wicca movement of the 1950s, thougfh many have attempted to present some sort of old etymology. As for tormented figures, you can find such things in many old churches along with images of the green man and othet pagan signs. The church used to love to show torment to scare it's paritioners into being good. Go figure...

Jim McDougall · 8th January 2007, 10:47 PM

Without going into more detail at this point, I am under the impression that artistic scabbard symbolism is intended to be 'viewed' with point upward, and as noted the cross is properly upright.
This is a fascinating knife and I don't believe any sinister connotations are employed in the motif, but it will be interesting to see what develops with further research. The architectural similarities do associate with Notre Dame in the sense that they seem 'Gothic' , which is of course the style, and think Yannis may be right on target. It does seem that daggers, from the time of the distinctive artistic examples that carried the work of Hans Holstein whose painting 'The Dance of Death' is found on early daggers (thus colloquially termed 'Holbein' daggers) may have inspired other 'artistic' theme type items.

Best regards,
Jim

spiral · 8th January 2007, 11:40 PM

Thanks for your opinions!

"wolviex quote" Second, and most important, the image with hilt downside is the proper side! Take a look at the most of the European swords, and blades inscriptions, including crosses (i.e. Hungarian ones) - with your theory every one of them would be satanic, upside down!"

Fascinating! I though the referance was which way things were on the scabbard , Ive always seen motifs the opposite way to those on the blade

Jim Can you elucidate why you think the scabbard should be studyed point up? i was thinking of the knife the forumites here would describe as "fantasy" in that it has an exotic cast handle, in the wallace collection that was a gift from Napolean III to the 4th Marques of of Hereford.

As its the nearest knife Ive seen to this design.

mmmm. Normal church representation & a happy maiden or a fantasy knife?

Intriuging opinions from such a learned bunch! Any one got any facts to add?

Perhaps some of you would be kind enough to show example of other such Christian brotherhood fantasy pieces?

& of course examples of real Satanic daggers or do such things not exist?

It would be nice to find an expert on such things.

Spiral

fenlander · 11th January 2007, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I have quite a bit of experience with old pagan symbols, but would not consider them to be "satanic" in nature...even the ones that feature horned gods and inverted pentagrams.

Can you point me in the right direction for a good book on pagan symbols, please?

David · 11th January 2007, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenlander

Can you point me in the right direction for a good book on pagan symbols, please?

Give me a day or so to look through my library.

fenlander · 11th January 2007, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Give me a day or so to look through my library.

Thanks that is helpful of you.
This is becoming more and more interesting. I always thought inverted crosses were satanic. Like the inverted pentacle is for black magic. Never even heard of the cross of St Peter. Very interesting. I'm looking for more of an introductory book and from a respected author in the field.

Yannis · 11th January 2007, 08:09 AM

Nice observation Manolo!

Let’s talk about goats. For you that you are not familiar with them I have to say that goats are no pets. They are neurotic creatures who jump around and don’t like humans except their shepherds. This particular goat on the hilt looks quite happy to be in close touch with the lady. The body language is more of a dog! If it was a dog there what would you think? Not sacrifice of course!

wolviex · 11th January 2007, 09:55 AM

I understand we all disagree with Spiral on the field of interpretation of the meaning of this dagger.

SCABBARD: is exceptional indeed beacuse most of the scabbards are oriented downside, indeed. There are some scabbards oriented also horizontally (few examples), and as Jim, I have also seen somewhere scabbards like yours. Like David I won't change my mind this is just like it should be, because:

- this is the only way you can make church in proper proportions
- I still think it is artistic project. Until the upturned churches aren't symbol of satanism or occultism, there is no point to search one here.
- CROSSES aren't upside down - when you look on the church everything looks fine. Turning scabbard doesn't change anything. Why? Because it is stupid idea. I'll return to crosses on the blades. You can turn the blade and say the cross is upside-down too

. No sense!
- The idea with lady triumph under the church, or being a symbol under the collapse church doesn't work here. If it would, this scabbard would be very poor artistic project (I don't say it is unique and glamorous work either). Anyway, in the picture of the church there is nothing what would suggest it is turned, collapsed or anything wrong with it.
- You all made great work bringing the history with Esmeralda which just fit here. Iconography seems to be enough for the proof. Church on the scabbard doesn't have to looks like Notre Dame in all details to be Notre Dame. The work is rather scetchy in details. And hardly ever you can see something identical with archetype when you're moving around symbolism and known legends. For example, in my city of Krakow there is a tradition of making Christ sheds models on Christmas time, where the shed is always situated in main Krakow's church, which is St.Marys church. Well, hardly ever this is exact the imagination of this church, while it is very characteristical. You won't find two identical models, but everybody knows how this main church looks like!

On the other hand all the knives you presented here as 'satanistic' are full of evil images, but I can see non of such on this dagger. Nice lady with loving animal, and well, there are some grim faces on the hilt, but there are many such mascarons in the art through the centuries. I never thought about hussar armour with evil-looking like mascaron on it, as of a product of occultism!

For me, well it is my interpretation, this dagger is nothing but nice Romantic knife from 19th century - century where legends, neogothic, neorenaissance, horror literature which bloomed then, made people to think in other directions, and inspired also the weapons and other arts too. You could buy many strange souvenirs then.

The idea of using 'very special dagger', and non other but with images of evil by any occult group is under the discussion too. If I would like to sacrifice anything I would use butcher's knife instead of a toy, as more reliable. The idea of using highly decorated knives seems to be more Hollywood thinking, of course characteristical for some rich princes, barons or noblemen who wanted to make real show of their 'occultism' or just make real fun of it - sometimes with pseudo occultism manners anyway! Most stories about satanism murderes are mentioning (if i remember well) about simple kitchen knives used during the process.

Here is another figural knife, made in the same period - 2nd half of the 19th c. or maybe even at the end of the century. And no - it wasn't a knife made especially for killing wives or unfaithul lovers

Tim Simmons · 11th January 2007, 11:54 AM

Bravo wolviex, sense at last!! and a fine example post. It is always unpleasant to find you have bought something, lets say under a spell

I have more times than a care to remember. If you want to laugh at my past flights of fantasy just ask.

spiral · 11th January 2007, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Bravo wolviex, sense at last!! and a fine example post. It is always unpleasant to find you have bought something, lets say under a spell

I have more times than a care to remember. If you want to laugh at my past flights of fantasy just ask.

Tim I am sure as you say you have made many mistakes in your purchases, as you say I have seen you post some here & if you read "The art of Rhinocerous horn carving in China " by Jan Chapman you may possibly spot another couple you havent yet realised.

I must have been much luckier to date or do more reserch on most things I collect. {The first year or two of my arms collecting I made varois errors due to lack of expierence , knowledge & research etc. that what taught me the value of research, evidence & expert oppinion rather than "joe bloggs" opinion.

If this ever turns out to be a typicle example of a non occult 19th centry piece, with its cast figural handle & scabbard, I will still be delighted to keep it. It is the piece itself I appreciate.

i doubt if I will ever see another such piece. This thread prooves its rarity.

& After all I picked it up for a mere 12 portions of fish & chips & curry sauce.

its amazing what one can find for peanuts sometimes.

I wonder if you could cast & chase a one piece scabbard like that? using 19th century technology? or is 19th century "fracklin mint" rather tricker if you put your proffesional head on?

I worked in casting as a youth, before deciding to move on to other feilds that I find more, spiritualy,intelectualy & indeed socialy rewarding.

But I did enjoy it at the time.

Spiral

spiral · 11th January 2007, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolviex

I understand we all disagree with Spiral on the field of interpretation of the meaning of this dagger.

SCABBARD: is exceptional indeed beacuse most of the scabbards are oriented downside, indeed. There are some scabbards oriented also horizontally (few examples), and as Jim, I have also seen somewhere scabbards like yours. Like David I won't change my mind this is just like it should be, because:

- this is the only way you can make church in proper proportions
- I still think it is artistic project. Until the upturned churches aren't symbol of satanism or occultism, there is no point to search one here.
- CROSSES aren't upside down - when you look on the church everything looks fine. Turning scabbard doesn't change anything. Why? Because it is stupid idea. I'll return to crosses on the blades. You can turn the blade and say the cross is upside-down too

. No sense!
- The idea with lady triumph under the church, or being a symbol under the collapse church doesn't work here. If it would, this scabbard would be very poor artistic project (I don't say it is unique and glamorous work either). Anyway, in the picture of the church there is nothing what would suggest it is turned, collapsed or anything wrong with it.
- You all made great work bringing the history with Esmeralda which just fit here. Iconography seems to be enough for the proof. Church on the scabbard doesn't have to looks like Notre Dame in all details to be Notre Dame. The work is rather scetchy in details. And hardly ever you can see something identical with archetype when you're moving around symbolism and known legends. For example, in my city of Krakow there is a tradition of making Christ sheds models on Christmas time, where the shed is always situated in main Krakow's church, which is St.Marys church. Well, hardly ever this is exact the imagination of this church, while it is very characteristical. You won't find two identical models, but everybody knows how this main church looks like!

On the other hand all the knives you presented here as 'satanistic' are full of evil images, but I can see non of such on this dagger. Nice lady with loving animal, and well, there are some grim faces on the hilt, but there are many such mascarons in the art through the centuries. I never thought about hussar armour with evil-looking like mascaron on it, as of a product of occultism!

For me, well it is my interpretation, this dagger is nothing but nice Romantic knife from 19th century - century where legends, neogothic, neorenaissance, horror literature which bloomed then, made people to think in other directions, and inspired also the weapons and other arts too. You could buy many strange souvenirs then.

The idea of using 'very special dagger', and non other but with images of evil by any occult group is under the discussion too. If I would like to sacrifice anything I would use butcher's knife instead of a toy, as more reliable. The idea of using highly decorated knives seems to be more Hollywood thinking, of course characteristical for some rich princes, barons or noblemen who wanted to make real show of their 'occultism' or just make real fun of it - sometimes with pseudo occultism manners anyway! Most stories about satanism murderes are mentioning (if i remember well) about simple kitchen knives used during the process.

Here is another figural knife, made in the same period - 2nd half of the 19th c. or maybe even at the end of the century. And no - it wasn't a knife made especially for killing wives or unfaithul lovers

Thankyou for your opinions, the leaders of French,German & indeed English satanic groups in the 19th century were generaly from the aristocracy.

Excelent figural knife you show which despite your opinions yet again clearly shows & adds further empirical evidence to my stated point that the cast figural handel daggers of the 19th century are veiwed in the upright position to study the scabbard.

Thankyou for bieng unbiased enough to share the photos to support my case even if they fly in the face of your opinions.

Spiral

wolviex · 11th January 2007, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Excelent figural knife you show which despite your opinions yet again clearly shows & adds further empirical evidence to my stated point that the cast figural handel daggers of the 19th century are veiwed in the upright position to study the scabbard.

Thankyou for bieng unbiased enough to share the photos to support my case even if they fly in the face of your opinions.

Quite the contrary
I think you should reread my post and you'll find that I admited your dagger is quite unique because of the scabbard, but aswell as Jim I have seen somewhere something like this before, so it's not the only one.

And again, IMHO, your turned scabbard means nothing here, as we all claim here.

Emanuel · 11th January 2007, 08:50 PM

What says that the right way to hold the dagger and scabbard is not the other way around so the church is right side up and the satanic priestess is upside down? In which case it would be the church triumphing over paganism, satanism and the like.

So far no one has presented an overturned church (spires, portals crosses and all) and this is the first time I see architectural features portrayed on a scabbard. Interesting it would be to find precedent for architectural depictions and see how they are done. If a castle were shown in the manner of this church, would the dagger indicate a political movement/rebellion? Architectural depiction usually has the problem of having to fit the shape of the space it occupies. A triangular building in a triangular shape will most times prescribe only one way to arrange it.

I think the "right way to hold the scabbard" is too ambiguous in some cases. If there were separate symbols following one alignment and one were overturned, then a case could be made. But when there is only one apparant symbol, what is there to indicate the "right side up"? Looking at examples from different places won't help either IMO. Maybe a German will look at it this way, a Frenchman that way, a Brit another and a Spaniard yet another...the Italian will laugh at them and show the right way

Emanuel

Emanuel · 11th January 2007, 08:57 PM

I think that stylistically and thematically, the dagger and scabbard must be able to function separately. The hilt can tell its own story and in the cases so far, so can the scabbard. There is something happening on the scabbard that tells something. In the case of your dagger Spiral, there is only a perfectly normal church. On its own there is nothing wrong with it. Do any other cult daggers function this way?

The way you hold it is irrelevant, the satanaic symbol must be legible in the context of the other symbols occupying the same space as it. If the crosses on the church were upside down, then again a convincing case could be made. But as it stands, the church has nothing wrong...
Emanuel

spiral · 11th January 2007, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

What says that the right way to hold the dagger and scabbard is not the other way around so the church is right side up and the satanic priestess is upside down? In which case it would be the church triumphing over paganism, satanism and the like.

So far no one has presented an overturned church (spires, portals crosses and all) and this is the first time I see architectural features portrayed on a scabbard. Interesting it would be to find precedent for architectural depictions and see how they are done. If a castle were shown in the manner of this church, would the dagger indicate a political movement/rebellion? Architectural depiction usually has the problem of having to fit the shape of the space it occupies. A triangular building in a triangular shape will most times prescribe only one way to arrange it.

I think the "right way to hold the scabbard" is too ambiguous in some cases. If there were separate symbols following one alignment and one were overturned, then a case could be made. But when there is only one apparant symbol, what is there to indicate the "right side up"? Looking at examples from different places won't help either IMO. Maybe a German will look at it this way, a Frenchman that way, a Brit another and a Spaniard yet another...the Italian will laugh at them and show the right way

Emanuel

Empircal evidence shown by me , so far demonstrates that European figural knives of the 19th century are veiwed handle upright.

Satanic black masses are about inverting the Christian mass, even the words are recounted backwards. this is well recorded.

Spiral

katana · 11th January 2007, 09:01 PM

Symbology.....is a very demanding subject, the meanings dependant on race, religion, time period. Many symbols often have several meanings.....some diametrically opposed !!!!

For Instance if you saw this symbol.....what would you think ?....what would you feel ? Once you have 'organised your thoughts' click on the link....

http://www.hostultra.com/~Exidor/Swastika/Swastika.html

Tim Simmons · 11th January 2007, 09:14 PM

To my mind this thread stopped making any sense a while back. I for one will not be toyed with acerbic abnegation any further.

spiral · 11th January 2007, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Symbology.....is a very demanding subject, the meanings dependant on race, religion, time period. Many symbols often have several meanings.....some diametrically opposed !!!!

For Instance if you saw this symbol.....what would you think ?....what would you feel ? Once you have 'organised your thoughts' click on the link....

http://www.hostultra.com/~Exidor/Swastika/Swastika.html

Well I thought of thice piece {the central one, {old photo I had handy

.}

But then I am intrested in symbolism.

As its neither European, 19th century, nor has a cast handle the evidence of this piece in how to look at the scabbard is worthless in this discusian though.

It looks like your learning though if you apply the same concepts to the dagger featured , what conclusians do you then reach?

Spiral

spiral · 11th January 2007, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolviex

Quite the contrary
I think you should reread my post and you'll find that I admited your dagger is quite unique because of the scabbard, but aswell as Jim I have seen somewhere something like this before, so it's not the only one.

And again, IMHO, your turned scabbard means nothing here, as we all claim here.

I understood your post.

I have to ignore you "evidence" though whether yours or Jims as possibly incorrect.

After all niether of you can even remeber where you saw it. So that leaves room for error as perhaps you cant remeber quite exactly correctly what you have seen before.

If you ever remeber it please post here or PM me if its in a few years time. I always appreciate evidence.

Thankyou.

Spiral

11th January 2007, 09:55 AM	#8
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	I understand we all disagree with Spiral on the field of interpretation of the meaning of this dagger. SCABBARD: is exceptional indeed beacuse most of the scabbards are oriented downside, indeed. There are some scabbards oriented also horizontally (few examples), and as Jim, I have also seen somewhere scabbards like yours. Like David I won't change my mind this is just like it should be, because: - this is the only way you can make church in proper proportions - I still think it is artistic project. Until the upturned churches aren't symbol of satanism or occultism, there is no point to search one here. - CROSSES aren't upside down - when you look on the church everything looks fine. Turning scabbard doesn't change anything. Why? Because it is stupid idea. I'll return to crosses on the blades. You can turn the blade and say the cross is upside-down too . No sense! - The idea with lady triumph under the church, or being a symbol under the collapse church doesn't work here. If it would, this scabbard would be very poor artistic project (I don't say it is unique and glamorous work either). Anyway, in the picture of the church there is nothing what would suggest it is turned, collapsed or anything wrong with it. - You all made great work bringing the history with Esmeralda which just fit here. Iconography seems to be enough for the proof. Church on the scabbard doesn't have to looks like Notre Dame in all details to be Notre Dame. The work is rather scetchy in details. And hardly ever you can see something identical with archetype when you're moving around symbolism and known legends. For example, in my city of Krakow there is a tradition of making Christ sheds models on Christmas time, where the shed is always situated in main Krakow's church, which is St.Marys church. Well, hardly ever this is exact the imagination of this church, while it is very characteristical. You won't find two identical models, but everybody knows how this main church looks like! On the other hand all the knives you presented here as 'satanistic' are full of evil images, but I can see non of such on this dagger. Nice lady with loving animal, and well, there are some grim faces on the hilt, but there are many such mascarons in the art through the centuries. I never thought about hussar armour with evil-looking like mascaron on it, as of a product of occultism! For me, well it is my interpretation, this dagger is nothing but nice Romantic knife from 19th century - century where legends, neogothic, neorenaissance, horror literature which bloomed then, made people to think in other directions, and inspired also the weapons and other arts too. You could buy many strange souvenirs then. The idea of using 'very special dagger', and non other but with images of evil by any occult group is under the discussion too. If I would like to sacrifice anything I would use butcher's knife instead of a toy, as more reliable. The idea of using highly decorated knives seems to be more Hollywood thinking, of course characteristical for some rich princes, barons or noblemen who wanted to make real show of their 'occultism' or just make real fun of it - sometimes with pseudo occultism manners anyway! Most stories about satanism murderes are mentioning (if i remember well) about simple kitchen knives used during the process. Here is another figural knife, made in the same period - 2nd half of the 19th c. or maybe even at the end of the century. And no - it wasn't a knife made especially for killing wives or unfaithul lovers Attached Images

11th January 2007, 08:50 PM	#13
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	A thought What says that the right way to hold the dagger and scabbard is not the other way around so the church is right side up and the satanic priestess is upside down? In which case it would be the church triumphing over paganism, satanism and the like. So far no one has presented an overturned church (spires, portals crosses and all) and this is the first time I see architectural features portrayed on a scabbard. Interesting it would be to find precedent for architectural depictions and see how they are done. If a castle were shown in the manner of this church, would the dagger indicate a political movement/rebellion? Architectural depiction usually has the problem of having to fit the shape of the space it occupies. A triangular building in a triangular shape will most times prescribe only one way to arrange it. I think the "right way to hold the scabbard" is too ambiguous in some cases. If there were separate symbols following one alignment and one were overturned, then a case could be made. But when there is only one apparant symbol, what is there to indicate the "right side up"? Looking at examples from different places won't help either IMO. Maybe a German will look at it this way, a Frenchman that way, a Brit another and a Spaniard yet another...the Italian will laugh at them and show the right way Emanuel

11th January 2007, 08:57 PM	#14
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Another one... I think that stylistically and thematically, the dagger and scabbard must be able to function separately. The hilt can tell its own story and in the cases so far, so can the scabbard. There is something happening on the scabbard that tells something. In the case of your dagger Spiral, there is only a perfectly normal church. On its own there is nothing wrong with it. Do any other cult daggers function this way? The way you hold it is irrelevant, the satanaic symbol must be legible in the context of the other symbols occupying the same space as it. If the crosses on the church were upside down, then again a convincing case could be made. But as it stands, the church has nothing wrong... Emanuel

11th January 2007, 09:01 PM	#16
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Symbology.....is a very demanding subject, the meanings dependant on race, religion, time period. Many symbols often have several meanings.....some diametrically opposed !!!! For Instance if you saw this symbol.....what would you think ?....what would you feel ? Once you have 'organised your thoughts' click on the link.... http://www.hostultra.com/~Exidor/Swastika/Swastika.html Attached Images

8th January 2007, 09:04 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Agreed. The crosses are upside down because the church is, This is the natural position since the steeple shape follows the scabbard. I reject terms like "satanist" because they are very loaded and inaccurate. Satanism is a modern phenomenon, like the Church of Satan or the Temple of Set. Frankly i find it hard to take these guys too seriously. In the old days anything non-Christian was considered to be of satan, but i think you would be hard pressed to find any actual satanic cults that were organized to the level that they would create such a work as this dagger for their uses. I have quite a bit of experience with old pagan symbols, but would not consider them to be "satanic" in nature...even the ones that feature horned gods and inverted pentagrams. This does appear to be a ritual dagger of some sort and i would image it might be late 19th to early 20th century. The term athame really doesn'y come into any serious usage until the neo-pagan wicca movement of the 1950s, thougfh many have attempted to present some sort of old etymology. As for tormented figures, you can find such things in many old churches along with images of the green man and othet pagan signs. The church used to love to show torment to scare it's paritioners into being good. Go figure...

8th January 2007, 10:47 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Without going into more detail at this point, I am under the impression that artistic scabbard symbolism is intended to be 'viewed' with point upward, and as noted the cross is properly upright. This is a fascinating knife and I don't believe any sinister connotations are employed in the motif, but it will be interesting to see what develops with further research. The architectural similarities do associate with Notre Dame in the sense that they seem 'Gothic' , which is of course the style, and think Yannis may be right on target. It does seem that daggers, from the time of the distinctive artistic examples that carried the work of Hans Holstein whose painting 'The Dance of Death' is found on early daggers (thus colloquially termed 'Holbein' daggers) may have inspired other 'artistic' theme type items. Best regards, Jim

8th January 2007, 11:40 PM	#3
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thanks for your opinions! "wolviex quote" Second, and most important, the image with hilt downside is the proper side! Take a look at the most of the European swords, and blades inscriptions, including crosses (i.e. Hungarian ones) - with your theory every one of them would be satanic, upside down!" Fascinating! I though the referance was which way things were on the scabbard , Ive always seen motifs the opposite way to those on the blade Jim Can you elucidate why you think the scabbard should be studyed point up? i was thinking of the knife the forumites here would describe as "fantasy" in that it has an exotic cast handle, in the wallace collection that was a gift from Napolean III to the 4th Marques of of Hereford. As its the nearest knife Ive seen to this design. mmmm. Normal church representation & a happy maiden or a fantasy knife? Intriuging opinions from such a learned bunch! Any one got any facts to add? Perhaps some of you would be kind enough to show example of other such Christian brotherhood fantasy pieces? & of course examples of real Satanic daggers or do such things not exist? It would be nice to find an expert on such things. Spiral

11th January 2007, 08:09 AM	#7
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Nice observation Manolo! Let’s talk about goats. For you that you are not familiar with them I have to say that goats are no pets. They are neurotic creatures who jump around and don’t like humans except their shepherds. This particular goat on the hilt looks quite happy to be in close touch with the lady. The body language is more of a dog! If it was a dog there what would you think? Not sacrifice of course!

11th January 2007, 11:54 AM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	Bravo wolviex, sense at last!! and a fine example post. It is always unpleasant to find you have bought something, lets say under a spell I have more times than a care to remember. If you want to laugh at my past flights of fantasy just ask.

11th January 2007, 09:14 PM	#17
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	To my mind this thread stopped making any sense a while back. I for one will not be toyed with acerbic abnegation any further.