Satanic dagger, Age & country of Origin?

[David]

Beautiful dagger. The scabbard does seem to be a representation of a church. I see nothing that would ID the woman as Lilith. I would assume she is more likely a high priestess. I would also stop short of referring to this as a "satanic" dagger, though it is most like to be for pagan purposes. Just because it may not be from a Judeo-Christian tradition doesn't necessarily make it "satanic".

[spiral]

Bill I am sure the scabbard & handle were crafted & chased by the same hand at the same time.

I would also say the blade was older than the scabbard & handle were then made for it for its new life for a well to do satanist.

From what i have read it was usual to use older blades.

I totaly agree Athame is not the term i would use.

Thankyou David!

I say Satanic because that is who would use upside down churches & crucifixes, and perhaps the tormented clergy also featured? My understanding of Pagan woudnt include that.

I agree it may not be Lillith & your supposition that its a high priestess could be correct.

It would be usefull if someone had more expierience of these daggers & old satanic symbolism.

Spiral

[wolviex]

I agree with David and it seems to be obvious that scabbard is a representation of a church.

But I DON'T AGREE with an upside down theory which is just a wishful thinking here, I suppose, and the result you would like to see it upside down.

First: if the scabbard represents a church why the upside down crosses, or - I'm not familiar with stanic symbolism - but do they ever picture churches upsidedown

Second, and most important, the image with hilt downside is the proper side! Take a look at the most of the European swords, and blades inscriptions, including crosses (i.e. Hungarian ones) - with your theory every one of them would be satanic, upside down!

Regards!

[David]

Agreed. The crosses are upside down because the church is, This is the natural position since the steeple shape follows the scabbard. I reject terms like "satanist" because they are very loaded and inaccurate. Satanism is a modern phenomenon, like the Church of Satan or the Temple of Set. Frankly i find it hard to take these guys too seriously. In the old days anything non-Christian was considered to be of satan, but i think you would be hard pressed to find any actual satanic cults that were organized to the level that they would create such a work as this dagger for their uses. I have quite a bit of experience with old pagan symbols, but would not consider them to be "satanic" in nature...even the ones that feature horned gods and inverted pentagrams. This does appear to be a ritual dagger of some sort and i would image it might be late 19th to early 20th century.
The term athame really doesn'y come into any serious usage until the neo-pagan wicca movement of the 1950s, thougfh many have attempted to present some sort of old etymology. As for tormented figures, you can find such things in many old churches along with images of the green man and othet pagan signs. The church used to love to show torment to scare it's paritioners into being good. Go figure...

[Jim McDougall]

Without going into more detail at this point, I am under the impression that artistic scabbard symbolism is intended to be 'viewed' with point upward, and as noted the cross is properly upright.
This is a fascinating knife and I don't believe any sinister connotations are employed in the motif, but it will be interesting to see what develops with further research. The architectural similarities do associate with Notre Dame in the sense that they seem 'Gothic' , which is of course the style, and think Yannis may be right on target. It does seem that daggers, from the time of the distinctive artistic examples that carried the work of Hans Holstein whose painting 'The Dance of Death' is found on early daggers (thus colloquially termed 'Holbein' daggers) may have inspired other 'artistic' theme type items.

Best regards,
Jim

[spiral]

Thanks for your opinions!

"wolviex quote" Second, and most important, the image with hilt downside is the proper side! Take a look at the most of the European swords, and blades inscriptions, including crosses (i.e. Hungarian ones) - with your theory every one of them would be satanic, upside down!"


Fascinating! I though the referance was which way things were on the scabbard , Ive always seen motifs the opposite way to those on the blade

Jim Can you elucidate why you think the scabbard should be studyed point up? i was thinking of the knife the forumites here would describe as "fantasy" in that it has an exotic cast handle, in the wallace collection that was a gift from Napolean III to the 4th Marques of of Hereford.

As its the nearest knife Ive seen to this design.

mmmm. Normal church representation & a happy maiden or a fantasy knife?

Intriuging opinions from such a learned bunch! Any one got any facts to add?

Perhaps some of you would be kind enough to show example of other such Christian brotherhood fantasy pieces?

& of course examples of real Satanic daggers or do such things not exist?

It would be nice to find an expert on such things.

Spiral

[fenlander]

Originally Posted by David

I have quite a bit of experience with old pagan symbols, but would not consider them to be "satanic" in nature...even the ones that feature horned gods and inverted pentagrams.

Can you point me in the right direction for a good book on pagan symbols, please?

[David]

Originally Posted by fenlander

Can you point me in the right direction for a good book on pagan symbols, please?

Give me a day or so to look through my library.

[fenlander]

Originally Posted by David

Give me a day or so to look through my library.

Thanks that is helpful of you.
This is becoming more and more interesting. I always thought inverted crosses were satanic. Like the inverted pentacle is for black magic. Never even heard of the cross of St Peter. Very interesting. I'm looking for more of an introductory book and from a respected author in the field.

[Yannis]

Nice observation Manolo!

Let’s talk about goats. For you that you are not familiar with them I have to say that goats are no pets. They are neurotic creatures who jump around and don’t like humans except their shepherds. This particular goat on the hilt looks quite happy to be in close touch with the lady. The body language is more of a dog! If it was a dog there what would you think? Not sacrifice of course!

[wolviex]

I understand we all disagree with Spiral on the field of interpretation of the meaning of this dagger.

SCABBARD: is exceptional indeed beacuse most of the scabbards are oriented downside, indeed. There are some scabbards oriented also horizontally (few examples), and as Jim, I have also seen somewhere scabbards like yours. Like David I won't change my mind this is just like it should be, because:

- this is the only way you can make church in proper proportions
- I still think it is artistic project. Until the upturned churches aren't symbol of satanism or occultism, there is no point to search one here.
- CROSSES aren't upside down - when you look on the church everything looks fine. Turning scabbard doesn't change anything. Why? Because it is stupid idea. I'll return to crosses on the blades. You can turn the blade and say the cross is upside-down too . No sense!
- The idea with lady triumph under the church, or being a symbol under the collapse church doesn't work here. If it would, this scabbard would be very poor artistic project (I don't say it is unique and glamorous work either). Anyway, in the picture of the church there is nothing what would suggest it is turned, collapsed or anything wrong with it.
- You all made great work bringing the history with Esmeralda which just fit here. Iconography seems to be enough for the proof. Church on the scabbard doesn't have to looks like Notre Dame in all details to be Notre Dame. The work is rather scetchy in details. And hardly ever you can see something identical with archetype when you're moving around symbolism and known legends. For example, in my city of Krakow there is a tradition of making Christ sheds models on Christmas time, where the shed is always situated in main Krakow's church, which is St.Marys church. Well, hardly ever this is exact the imagination of this church, while it is very characteristical. You won't find two identical models, but everybody knows how this main church looks like!

On the other hand all the knives you presented here as 'satanistic' are full of evil images, but I can see non of such on this dagger. Nice lady with loving animal, and well, there are some grim faces on the hilt, but there are many such mascarons in the art through the centuries. I never thought about hussar armour with evil-looking like mascaron on it, as of a product of occultism!

For me, well it is my interpretation, this dagger is nothing but nice Romantic knife from 19th century - century where legends, neogothic, neorenaissance, horror literature which bloomed then, made people to think in other directions, and inspired also the weapons and other arts too. You could buy many strange souvenirs then.

The idea of using 'very special dagger', and non other but with images of evil by any occult group is under the discussion too. If I would like to sacrifice anything I would use butcher's knife instead of a toy, as more reliable. The idea of using highly decorated knives seems to be more Hollywood thinking, of course characteristical for some rich princes, barons or noblemen who wanted to make real show of their 'occultism' or just make real fun of it - sometimes with pseudo occultism manners anyway! Most stories about satanism murderes are mentioning (if i remember well) about simple kitchen knives used during the process.

Here is another figural knife, made in the same period - 2nd half of the 19th c. or maybe even at the end of the century. And no - it wasn't a knife made especially for killing wives or unfaithul lovers

[Tim Simmons]

Bravo wolviex, sense at last!! and a fine example post. It is always unpleasant to find you have bought something, lets say under a spell I have more times than a care to remember. If you want to laugh at my past flights of fantasy just ask.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by wolviex

I understand we all disagree with Spiral on the field of interpretation of the meaning of this dagger.

SCABBARD: is exceptional indeed beacuse most of the scabbards are oriented downside, indeed. There are some scabbards oriented also horizontally (few examples), and as Jim, I have also seen somewhere scabbards like yours. Like David I won't change my mind this is just like it should be, because:

- this is the only way you can make church in proper proportions
- I still think it is artistic project. Until the upturned churches aren't symbol of satanism or occultism, there is no point to search one here.
- CROSSES aren't upside down - when you look on the church everything looks fine. Turning scabbard doesn't change anything. Why? Because it is stupid idea. I'll return to crosses on the blades. You can turn the blade and say the cross is upside-down too . No sense!
- The idea with lady triumph under the church, or being a symbol under the collapse church doesn't work here. If it would, this scabbard would be very poor artistic project (I don't say it is unique and glamorous work either). Anyway, in the picture of the church there is nothing what would suggest it is turned, collapsed or anything wrong with it.
- You all made great work bringing the history with Esmeralda which just fit here. Iconography seems to be enough for the proof. Church on the scabbard doesn't have to looks like Notre Dame in all details to be Notre Dame. The work is rather scetchy in details. And hardly ever you can see something identical with archetype when you're moving around symbolism and known legends. For example, in my city of Krakow there is a tradition of making Christ sheds models on Christmas time, where the shed is always situated in main Krakow's church, which is St.Marys church. Well, hardly ever this is exact the imagination of this church, while it is very characteristical. You won't find two identical models, but everybody knows how this main church looks like!

On the other hand all the knives you presented here as 'satanistic' are full of evil images, but I can see non of such on this dagger. Nice lady with loving animal, and well, there are some grim faces on the hilt, but there are many such mascarons in the art through the centuries. I never thought about hussar armour with evil-looking like mascaron on it, as of a product of occultism!

For me, well it is my interpretation, this dagger is nothing but nice Romantic knife from 19th century - century where legends, neogothic, neorenaissance, horror literature which bloomed then, made people to think in other directions, and inspired also the weapons and other arts too. You could buy many strange souvenirs then.

The idea of using 'very special dagger', and non other but with images of evil by any occult group is under the discussion too. If I would like to sacrifice anything I would use butcher's knife instead of a toy, as more reliable. The idea of using highly decorated knives seems to be more Hollywood thinking, of course characteristical for some rich princes, barons or noblemen who wanted to make real show of their 'occultism' or just make real fun of it - sometimes with pseudo occultism manners anyway! Most stories about satanism murderes are mentioning (if i remember well) about simple kitchen knives used during the process.

Here is another figural knife, made in the same period - 2nd half of the 19th c. or maybe even at the end of the century. And no - it wasn't a knife made especially for killing wives or unfaithul lovers

Thankyou for your opinions, the leaders of French,German & indeed English satanic groups in the 19th century were generaly from the aristocracy.

Excelent figural knife you show which despite your opinions yet again clearly shows & adds further empirical evidence to my stated point that the cast figural handel daggers of the 19th century are veiwed in the upright position to study the scabbard.

Thankyou for bieng unbiased enough to share the photos to support my case even if they fly in the face of your opinions.


Spiral

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by wolviex

I agree with David and it seems to be obvious that scabbard is a representation of a church.

But I DON'T AGREE with an upside down theory which is just a wishful thinking here, I suppose, and the result you would like to see it upside down.

First: if the scabbard represents a church why the upside down crosses, or - I'm not familiar with stanic symbolism - but do they ever picture churches upsidedown

Second, and most important, the image with hilt downside is the proper side! Take a look at the most of the European swords, and blades inscriptions, including crosses (i.e. Hungarian ones) - with your theory every one of them would be satanic, upside down!

Regards!

While I am no expert on the subject the upside down crosses were used in satanic rituals during the time when black masses were done. These were even at times done in an actual church with the crucifix turned upside down. There are historical references to the black mass going back into the 1600's, perhaps even before that. Some books on satanism say there is recorded the arrest of a French baron, Gilles de Rais, who was accused of conducting Black Masses in the cellar of his castle. The accusation claimed that he kidnapped, tortured, and murdered more than 140 children as sacrifices. He was executed in 1440. In 1500 some say the cathedral chapter of Cambrai held Black Masses in protest against their bishop. Some references speak of a priest in Orleans, Gentien le Clerc, tried around 1615, confessed to performing the "Devil's mass". In 1647 the nuns of Louviers claimed that they had been bewitched and possessed, and forced by chaplains to participate naked in masses, defiling the cross and trampling the host. It seems most of the accounts come from France. A good bit published on them in the 1800's ( again mostly from France) and a resurgence in published work around 1960. Catherine Monvoisin and the priest Etienne Guibourg were executed for preforming a black mass for the mistress of Louis XIV( Madame de Montespan). In 1891 Joris-Karl Huysmans wrote about French Satanism in a text called La-Bas. So it depends on what you consider modern as to whether satanism is a "a modern phenomenon" It is true La Vey's Church of Satan or Michael Aquino's Temple of Set are very modern and may not have more than a passing connection to the historical examples.

The cross on the blade may fit with what you say in your second point but are crosses on the scabbard upside down ? And if so did they seem to come from a steeple as these do ? I find what Jim says very interesting as I never thought sheaths were looked at tip up and that is something new I have learned.

I do agree that we all see what we expect or want to see sometimes so I may be doing that here

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Not an Atheme scabbard. Could the scabbard be a later addition?

An atheme would not have upside-down or rightside-up cross. Christian symbols are not part of Wicca. Probably not Pagan either. Most likely something else.

Maybe satanist or some anti-christian cult.

Cauldrons have three legs and are more spherical.

Blade does look like a reshaped sword blade. Particularly the way the fullers go up into the handle.

I like it.

Bill I know arthames are used in wiccan and some celtic ritual now but was not the dagger used for satanic ritual also called an arthame, but I could be totally wrong on that, again I need to check LaVey or Aleister Crowley. and of course even if they used the term it does not mean they used it correctly.

Originally Posted by David

Beautiful dagger. The scabbard does seem to be a representation of a church. I see nothing that would ID the woman as Lilith. I would assume she is more likely a high priestess. I would also stop short of referring to this as a "satanic" dagger, though it is most like to be for pagan purposes. Just because it may not be from a Judeo-Christian tradition doesn't necessarily make it "satanic".

David
I completly agree with you that all that is pagan is not satanic. And this may indeed be a dagger for some other use. Either way the symbolism on it facinates me and makes me want to know more. When I use the term "satanic" I use it in the historical context of above.


Lastly as to the "caldron" I do not believe older caldrons fit the image we think of today. And the caldron is a very old symbol. Here is a link to a picture from a shipwreck dating to 200 BC in the Mediterranean, the picture is identified as a cooking caldron among amphora

http://www.seaword.org/images/caldron.jpg

and a reproduction of a medieval "caldron"
http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/images/cd-1301.jpg

Of course it could just as well be a tambourine as mentioned above

One thing we all agree on is the workmanship and attention to detail is excellent

[David]

Originally Posted by RhysMichael

Bill I know arthames are used in wiccan and some celtic ritual now but was not the dagger used for satanic ritual also called an arthame, but I could be totally wrong on that, again I need to check LaVey or Aleister Crowley

Despite relishing in being called the "Great Beast" there is nothing in the writings of Crowley which leads me to believe he was in any way a satanist. LaVey was a self-proclaimed modern satanist whose practice was pretty much a modern invention. I doubt you will find much useful info in his writings. His rituals were based on ritual lodge magick of the 19thC (the Golden Dawn) so it is likely you would find the use of a dagger in them, but it hardly points to any satanic origin. The stories of "black masses" mostly come from a Christian perspective, making the stories of these early "satanists" highly suspect. Any claim made by modern satanists to knowledge of practicing the "authentic" black mass is sketchy at best.
The use of a dagger as an item in ritual magick really came into vogue in 19thC lodge magick, where a specific magickal weapon is assigned to each of the 4 elements of fire, water, air and earth, the dagger/sword belonging to the element of air. The Golden Dawn magicians created a magickal philosophy, based on Christianity, Qabalistic thought, Rosicrusian writings from the 17thC and Eastern philosophies. Gerald Gardner (once a member of the G.D. and a student of Crowley), known as the father of modern Wicca (and interestingly the author of The Kris and other Malay Weapons) continued the elemental importance of the dagger when he invented modern Wicca, changing it's attribution to fire instead of air. In all probability his experiences with the keris in Indonesia was important in forming his theories on the athame's importance in the Wiccan religion. I have serious doubts that the dagger had the same kind of intellectual importance in early (pre-Golden Dawn) Western magickal societies. The dagger probably had a more practical purpose, to be used in animal sacrifice. Probably a special dagger was used, but because i don't think it was assigned the same intellectual importance the latter occultists gave it i wonder if anything as specifically designed as the dagger presented here would have been created back in the day for such a purpose. So if there are such things as "satanic" daggers i doubt they are much more than a century old.

[RhysMichael]

Thanks for the information on the term Arthame. I was mistaken to use that term then.

It is true the writings of the 1800's are said tell vitually nothing of the ritual of the black mass and are totally from the perpective of the church. And yes many of the confessions during this time should be considered suspect or fabrications, I personally however see satanism as a natural course that rebellion to the church could take and the more restrictive the church the more appealing satanism would be to some people.

My comment on the monstrous and tormented faces on cherubs above are also in line with your comment "The church used to love to show torment to scare it's paritioners into being good." There is a tudor home near here that was brought over from england and reassembled here. It has historical furniture and some of the beds have such features right where you would have to look at them as you sleep.

An interesting subject
Thanks

[David]

Then again, the tormented faces could refer to gargoyles of Notre Dame or to the Hunchback himself.
I dug these images up. sorry they are so small.

[David]

Originally Posted by RhysMichael

Some books on satanism say there is recorded the arrest of a French baron, Gilles de Rais, who was accused of conducting Black Masses in the cellar of his castle. The accusation claimed that he kidnapped, tortured, and murdered more than 140 children as sacrifices. He was executed in 1440. In 1500 some say the cathedral chapter of Cambrai held Black Masses in protest against their bishop. Some references speak of a priest in Orleans, Gentien le Clerc, tried around 1615, confessed to performing the "Devil's mass". In 1647 the nuns of Louviers claimed that they had been bewitched and possessed, and forced by chaplains to participate naked in masses, defiling the cross and trampling the host. It seems most of the accounts come from France.

Keep in mind that these confessions were obtained by the inquistion through torture. I person might confess to just about anything under those circumstances. BTW, there is a wonderfully interesting film called "The Devils" that gives a very different perspective on the nuns "bewitched" by the priest in Louviers. Likewise it is doubtful that the church executed too many actual witches during the witch hunts.