Satanic dagger, Age & country of Origin?

RhysMichael · 8th January 2007, 06:19 PM

This may be the first non-contemporary Arthame I have ever seen. It is a very interesting piece. I notice there seems to be an upside down cross on the scabbard ( whick would make sense), perhaps an upsidedown church steeple and as you said candles, are there other symbols that I missed or cannot be seen in these pictures. The faces are interesting but on woodcarvings on furniture at least some cherubs from tudor times had tormeted or monstrous faces

could the item in the figures left hand represent a caldron ?

Rick · 8th January 2007, 06:33 PM

The symbolism is terrific.
The animal seeks the knife stuck in her belt.
She is surely going to make a sacrifice; something to catch the blood in her left hand ?

spiral · 8th January 2007, 07:05 PM

Thanks Guys, it seems an outstanding piece to me.

Rhysmichael the scabbard is a 3 door church or cathedral with as you say altar candals & 3 crucifixes all of which is upside down when the dagger is hilt up.

I rather wonder if it was modeled on an actual church to a degree? There a lots of small crosses alsoon the shuttered windows.

I understand that as Rick says that a pan would be used to capture the blood of the sacrafice

One of the faces when stuided under a lens is also covered in boils. I presume the skull caps represent Catholic clergy? & they are beneath the ground the woman {Lilith perhaps?} stands on.

Seems hard to find much info on these daggers & I am sure thier may be symbolism involved that I am missing. I wonder about the necklace for instance?

Spiral

David · 8th January 2007, 07:14 PM

Beautiful dagger. The scabbard does seem to be a representation of a church. I see nothing that would ID the woman as Lilith. I would assume she is more likely a high priestess. I would also stop short of referring to this as a "satanic" dagger, though it is most like to be for pagan purposes. Just because it may not be from a Judeo-Christian tradition doesn't necessarily make it "satanic".

spiral · 8th January 2007, 07:45 PM

Bill I am sure the scabbard & handle were crafted & chased by the same hand at the same time.

I would also say the blade was older than the scabbard & handle were then made for it for its new life for a well to do satanist.

From what i have read it was usual to use older blades.

I totaly agree Athame is not the term i would use.

Thankyou David!

I say Satanic because that is who would use upside down churches & crucifixes, and perhaps the tormented clergy also featured? My understanding of Pagan woudnt include that.

I agree it may not be Lillith & your supposition that its a high priestess could be correct.

It would be usefull if someone had more expierience of these daggers & old satanic symbolism.

Spiral

wolviex · 8th January 2007, 08:50 PM

I agree with David and it seems to be obvious that scabbard is a representation of a church.

But I DON'T AGREE with an upside down theory which is just a wishful thinking here, I suppose, and the result you would like to see it upside down.

First: if the scabbard represents a church why the upside down crosses, or - I'm not familiar with stanic symbolism - but do they ever picture churches upsidedown

Second, and most important, the image with hilt downside is the proper side! Take a look at the most of the European swords, and blades inscriptions, including crosses (i.e. Hungarian ones) - with your theory every one of them would be satanic, upside down!

Regards!

David · 8th January 2007, 09:04 PM

Agreed. The crosses are upside down because the church is, This is the natural position since the steeple shape follows the scabbard. I reject terms like "satanist" because they are very loaded and inaccurate. Satanism is a modern phenomenon, like the Church of Satan or the Temple of Set. Frankly i find it hard to take these guys too seriously.

In the old days anything non-Christian was considered to be of satan, but i think you would be hard pressed to find any actual satanic cults that were organized to the level that they would create such a work as this dagger for their uses. I have quite a bit of experience with old pagan symbols, but would not consider them to be "satanic" in nature...even the ones that feature horned gods and inverted pentagrams. This does appear to be a ritual dagger of some sort and i would image it might be late 19th to early 20th century.
The term athame really doesn'y come into any serious usage until the neo-pagan wicca movement of the 1950s, thougfh many have attempted to present some sort of old etymology. As for tormented figures, you can find such things in many old churches along with images of the green man and othet pagan signs. The church used to love to show torment to scare it's paritioners into being good. Go figure...

Jim McDougall · 8th January 2007, 10:47 PM

Without going into more detail at this point, I am under the impression that artistic scabbard symbolism is intended to be 'viewed' with point upward, and as noted the cross is properly upright.
This is a fascinating knife and I don't believe any sinister connotations are employed in the motif, but it will be interesting to see what develops with further research. The architectural similarities do associate with Notre Dame in the sense that they seem 'Gothic' , which is of course the style, and think Yannis may be right on target. It does seem that daggers, from the time of the distinctive artistic examples that carried the work of Hans Holstein whose painting 'The Dance of Death' is found on early daggers (thus colloquially termed 'Holbein' daggers) may have inspired other 'artistic' theme type items.

Best regards,
Jim

fenlander · 11th January 2007, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I have quite a bit of experience with old pagan symbols, but would not consider them to be "satanic" in nature...even the ones that feature horned gods and inverted pentagrams.

Can you point me in the right direction for a good book on pagan symbols, please?

Yannis · 11th January 2007, 08:09 AM

Nice observation Manolo!

Let’s talk about goats. For you that you are not familiar with them I have to say that goats are no pets. They are neurotic creatures who jump around and don’t like humans except their shepherds. This particular goat on the hilt looks quite happy to be in close touch with the lady. The body language is more of a dog! If it was a dog there what would you think? Not sacrifice of course!

RhysMichael · 9th January 2007, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolviex

I agree with David and it seems to be obvious that scabbard is a representation of a church.

But I DON'T AGREE with an upside down theory which is just a wishful thinking here, I suppose, and the result you would like to see it upside down.

First: if the scabbard represents a church why the upside down crosses, or - I'm not familiar with stanic symbolism - but do they ever picture churches upsidedown

Second, and most important, the image with hilt downside is the proper side! Take a look at the most of the European swords, and blades inscriptions, including crosses (i.e. Hungarian ones) - with your theory every one of them would be satanic, upside down!

Regards!

While I am no expert on the subject the upside down crosses were used in satanic rituals during the time when black masses were done. These were even at times done in an actual church with the crucifix turned upside down. There are historical references to the black mass going back into the 1600's, perhaps even before that. Some books on satanism say there is recorded the arrest of a French baron, Gilles de Rais, who was accused of conducting Black Masses in the cellar of his castle. The accusation claimed that he kidnapped, tortured, and murdered more than 140 children as sacrifices. He was executed in 1440. In 1500 some say the cathedral chapter of Cambrai held Black Masses in protest against their bishop. Some references speak of a priest in Orleans, Gentien le Clerc, tried around 1615, confessed to performing the "Devil's mass". In 1647 the nuns of Louviers claimed that they had been bewitched and possessed, and forced by chaplains to participate naked in masses, defiling the cross and trampling the host. It seems most of the accounts come from France. A good bit published on them in the 1800's ( again mostly from France) and a resurgence in published work around 1960. Catherine Monvoisin and the priest Etienne Guibourg were executed for preforming a black mass for the mistress of Louis XIV( Madame de Montespan). In 1891 Joris-Karl Huysmans wrote about French Satanism in a text called La-Bas. So it depends on what you consider modern as to whether satanism is a "a modern phenomenon" It is true La Vey's Church of Satan or Michael Aquino's Temple of Set are very modern and may not have more than a passing connection to the historical examples.

The cross on the blade may fit with what you say in your second point but are crosses on the scabbard upside down ? And if so did they seem to come from a steeple as these do ? I find what Jim says very interesting as I never thought sheaths were looked at tip up and that is something new I have learned.

I do agree that we all see what we expect or want to see sometimes so I may be doing that here

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Not an Atheme scabbard. Could the scabbard be a later addition?

An atheme would not have upside-down or rightside-up cross. Christian symbols are not part of Wicca. Probably not Pagan either. Most likely something else.

Maybe satanist or some anti-christian cult.

Cauldrons have three legs and are more spherical.

Blade does look like a reshaped sword blade. Particularly the way the fullers go up into the handle.

I like it.

Bill I know arthames are used in wiccan and some celtic ritual now but was not the dagger used for satanic ritual also called an arthame, but I could be totally wrong on that, again I need to check LaVey or Aleister Crowley. and of course even if they used the term it does not mean they used it correctly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Beautiful dagger. The scabbard does seem to be a representation of a church. I see nothing that would ID the woman as Lilith. I would assume she is more likely a high priestess. I would also stop short of referring to this as a "satanic" dagger, though it is most like to be for pagan purposes. Just because it may not be from a Judeo-Christian tradition doesn't necessarily make it "satanic".

David
I completly agree with you that all that is pagan is not satanic. And this may indeed be a dagger for some other use. Either way the symbolism on it facinates me and makes me want to know more. When I use the term "satanic" I use it in the historical context of above.

Lastly as to the "caldron" I do not believe older caldrons fit the image we think of today. And the caldron is a very old symbol. Here is a link to a picture from a shipwreck dating to 200 BC in the Mediterranean, the picture is identified as a cooking caldron among amphora

http://www.seaword.org/images/caldron.jpg

and a reproduction of a medieval "caldron"
http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/images/cd-1301.jpg

Of course it could just as well be a tambourine as mentioned above

One thing we all agree on is the workmanship and attention to detail is excellent

David · 9th January 2007, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhysMichael

Bill I know arthames are used in wiccan and some celtic ritual now but was not the dagger used for satanic ritual also called an arthame, but I could be totally wrong on that, again I need to check LaVey or Aleister Crowley

Despite relishing in being called the "Great Beast" there is nothing in the writings of Crowley which leads me to believe he was in any way a satanist. LaVey was a self-proclaimed modern satanist whose practice was pretty much a modern invention. I doubt you will find much useful info in his writings. His rituals were based on ritual lodge magick of the 19thC (the Golden Dawn) so it is likely you would find the use of a dagger in them, but it hardly points to any satanic origin. The stories of "black masses" mostly come from a Christian perspective, making the stories of these early "satanists" highly suspect. Any claim made by modern satanists to knowledge of practicing the "authentic" black mass is sketchy at best.
The use of a dagger as an item in ritual magick really came into vogue in 19thC lodge magick, where a specific magickal weapon is assigned to each of the 4 elements of fire, water, air and earth, the dagger/sword belonging to the element of air. The Golden Dawn magicians created a magickal philosophy, based on Christianity, Qabalistic thought, Rosicrusian writings from the 17thC and Eastern philosophies. Gerald Gardner (once a member of the G.D. and a student of Crowley), known as the father of modern Wicca (and interestingly the author of The Kris and other Malay Weapons) continued the elemental importance of the dagger when he invented modern Wicca, changing it's attribution to fire instead of air. In all probability his experiences with the keris in Indonesia was important in forming his theories on the athame's importance in the Wiccan religion. I have serious doubts that the dagger had the same kind of intellectual importance in early (pre-Golden Dawn) Western magickal societies. The dagger probably had a more practical purpose, to be used in animal sacrifice. Probably a special dagger was used, but because i don't think it was assigned the same intellectual importance the latter occultists gave it i wonder if anything as specifically designed as the dagger presented here would have been created back in the day for such a purpose. So if there are such things as "satanic" daggers i doubt they are much more than a century old.

David · 9th January 2007, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhysMichael

Some books on satanism say there is recorded the arrest of a French baron, Gilles de Rais, who was accused of conducting Black Masses in the cellar of his castle. The accusation claimed that he kidnapped, tortured, and murdered more than 140 children as sacrifices. He was executed in 1440. In 1500 some say the cathedral chapter of Cambrai held Black Masses in protest against their bishop. Some references speak of a priest in Orleans, Gentien le Clerc, tried around 1615, confessed to performing the "Devil's mass". In 1647 the nuns of Louviers claimed that they had been bewitched and possessed, and forced by chaplains to participate naked in masses, defiling the cross and trampling the host. It seems most of the accounts come from France.

Keep in mind that these confessions were obtained by the inquistion through torture. I person might confess to just about anything under those circumstances. BTW, there is a wonderfully interesting film called "The Devils" that gives a very different perspective on the nuns "bewitched" by the priest in Louviers. Likewise it is doubtful that the church executed too many actual witches during the witch hunts.

Bill M · 8th January 2007, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhysMichael

This may be the first non-contemporary Arthame I have ever seen. It is a very interesting piece. I notice there seems to be an upside down cross on the scabbard ( whick would make sense), perhaps an upsidedown church steeple and as you said candles, are there other symbols that I missed or cannot be seen in these pictures. The faces are interesting but on woodcarvings on furniture at least some cherubs from tudor times had tormeted or monstrous faces

could the item in the figures left hand represent a caldron ?

Not an Atheme scabbard. Could the scabbard be a later addition?

An atheme would not have upside-down or rightside-up cross. Christian symbols are not part of Wicca. Probably not Pagan either. Most likely something else.

Maybe satanist or some anti-christian cult.

Cauldrons have three legs and are more spherical.

Blade does look like a reshaped sword blade. Particularly the way the fullers go up into the handle.

I like it.

8th January 2007, 06:19 PM	#1
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	This may be the first non-contemporary Arthame I have ever seen. It is a very interesting piece. I notice there seems to be an upside down cross on the scabbard ( whick would make sense), perhaps an upsidedown church steeple and as you said candles, are there other symbols that I missed or cannot be seen in these pictures. The faces are interesting but on woodcarvings on furniture at least some cherubs from tudor times had tormeted or monstrous faces could the item in the figures left hand represent a caldron ?

8th January 2007, 06:33 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	The symbolism is terrific. The animal seeks the knife stuck in her belt. She is surely going to make a sacrifice; something to catch the blood in her left hand ?

8th January 2007, 07:05 PM	#3
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thanks Guys, it seems an outstanding piece to me. Rhysmichael the scabbard is a 3 door church or cathedral with as you say altar candals & 3 crucifixes all of which is upside down when the dagger is hilt up. I rather wonder if it was modeled on an actual church to a degree? There a lots of small crosses alsoon the shuttered windows. I understand that as Rick says that a pan would be used to capture the blood of the sacrafice One of the faces when stuided under a lens is also covered in boils. I presume the skull caps represent Catholic clergy? & they are beneath the ground the woman {Lilith perhaps?} stands on. Seems hard to find much info on these daggers & I am sure thier may be symbolism involved that I am missing. I wonder about the necklace for instance? Spiral

8th January 2007, 07:14 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Beautiful dagger. The scabbard does seem to be a representation of a church. I see nothing that would ID the woman as Lilith. I would assume she is more likely a high priestess. I would also stop short of referring to this as a "satanic" dagger, though it is most like to be for pagan purposes. Just because it may not be from a Judeo-Christian tradition doesn't necessarily make it "satanic".

8th January 2007, 07:45 PM	#5
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Bill I am sure the scabbard & handle were crafted & chased by the same hand at the same time. I would also say the blade was older than the scabbard & handle were then made for it for its new life for a well to do satanist. From what i have read it was usual to use older blades. I totaly agree Athame is not the term i would use. Thankyou David! I say Satanic because that is who would use upside down churches & crucifixes, and perhaps the tormented clergy also featured? My understanding of Pagan woudnt include that. I agree it may not be Lillith & your supposition that its a high priestess could be correct. It would be usefull if someone had more expierience of these daggers & old satanic symbolism. Spiral

8th January 2007, 08:50 PM	#6
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	I agree with David and it seems to be obvious that scabbard is a representation of a church. But I DON'T AGREE with an upside down theory which is just a wishful thinking here, I suppose, and the result you would like to see it upside down. First: if the scabbard represents a church why the upside down crosses, or - I'm not familiar with stanic symbolism - but do they ever picture churches upsidedown Second, and most important, the image with hilt downside is the proper side! Take a look at the most of the European swords, and blades inscriptions, including crosses (i.e. Hungarian ones) - with your theory every one of them would be satanic, upside down! Regards!

8th January 2007, 09:04 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Agreed. The crosses are upside down because the church is, This is the natural position since the steeple shape follows the scabbard. I reject terms like "satanist" because they are very loaded and inaccurate. Satanism is a modern phenomenon, like the Church of Satan or the Temple of Set. Frankly i find it hard to take these guys too seriously. In the old days anything non-Christian was considered to be of satan, but i think you would be hard pressed to find any actual satanic cults that were organized to the level that they would create such a work as this dagger for their uses. I have quite a bit of experience with old pagan symbols, but would not consider them to be "satanic" in nature...even the ones that feature horned gods and inverted pentagrams. This does appear to be a ritual dagger of some sort and i would image it might be late 19th to early 20th century. The term athame really doesn'y come into any serious usage until the neo-pagan wicca movement of the 1950s, thougfh many have attempted to present some sort of old etymology. As for tormented figures, you can find such things in many old churches along with images of the green man and othet pagan signs. The church used to love to show torment to scare it's paritioners into being good. Go figure...

8th January 2007, 10:47 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Without going into more detail at this point, I am under the impression that artistic scabbard symbolism is intended to be 'viewed' with point upward, and as noted the cross is properly upright. This is a fascinating knife and I don't believe any sinister connotations are employed in the motif, but it will be interesting to see what develops with further research. The architectural similarities do associate with Notre Dame in the sense that they seem 'Gothic' , which is of course the style, and think Yannis may be right on target. It does seem that daggers, from the time of the distinctive artistic examples that carried the work of Hans Holstein whose painting 'The Dance of Death' is found on early daggers (thus colloquially termed 'Holbein' daggers) may have inspired other 'artistic' theme type items. Best regards, Jim

11th January 2007, 08:09 AM	#10
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Nice observation Manolo! Let’s talk about goats. For you that you are not familiar with them I have to say that goats are no pets. They are neurotic creatures who jump around and don’t like humans except their shepherds. This particular goat on the hilt looks quite happy to be in close touch with the lady. The body language is more of a dog! If it was a dog there what would you think? Not sacrifice of course!