European Military Patterns- Ethnographic or not?

katana · 8th January 2007, 12:17 PM

Hi,
I am one of those guilty of posting some British military pattern swords....but I feel there is some relevence to the topic of Ethnographic edged weapons.

Colonial rule by European powers introduced Africa , India, SEA etc.to external influences in weapon design and manufacture.(and of course the other way round) The trade in European blades to the local inhabitants increased the creation of 'Hybrids' of manufactured blade with local hilting styles and local modification.
It also helps to put into context the weapons faced by the defending local people with their ethnic edged weapons, armour and tactics.
Could it be argued that the Tulwar, even with the variation in blade design, curveature etc. is a 'pattern' sword?

I have tried to acquire some 'Colonial' period swords to 'balance' those Ethnographic ones of the same period. For instance I acquired a Wilkinson light cavalry sabre and a Sudanese Kaskara from the same source. It is quite likely that the Sabre and Kaskara 'met' in the Mahdist Sudan. (further research, hopefully will confirm this) To me that makes them a 'pair' and relavent to my Ethnographic collection.

Alan62 · 8th January 2007, 12:41 PM

Very interesting thread,
Please help a novice understand,does the term ethnographic define an ethnicity or a region as it seems to be a word defining both and to this very new guy would seem to describe anything that is of a people or culture and from a region or specific geographic location.I guess I should go look the word up in a dictionary since i have not done that yet,but I will.
Again very good thread
Thanks for the information

Emanuel · 8th January 2007, 03:25 PM

Interesting thing, the hooking thrust. It reminds me of the Abyssinian shotel, designed to reach opponents around their shields. Wouldn't the shamshir's handle be an obstacle to a hooking strike...one has to twist the fist which feels awckward. TO produce a powerful thrust I image a wide swing is needed, again awckward with the rotated hand. Can your teacher hit a target hard enough to cause hard damage?

I think one of the problems presented by Rivkin is that present fighting styles may not reflect actual use centuries ago. It seems to me that something as extraordinary-looking (to an European) as a hooking thrust would have been mentioned in written accounts by many sources and not just in English.
I can imagine what the motion would look like, but a video/clip of it would be nice...

About ethnographic weapons and European military patterns...I had thought it to refer firstly to weapons created within one specific culture and more or less unique to that culture, and secondly to represent weapons not resulting from industrial processes. As European pattern swords were mass-produced, the sense of cultural craft is maybe lost a little. It is regained when an individual in another land takes the mass-produced blade and alters or refits it to suit his culture - in that action manual craft is involved and each resulting weapon is different from any other.

Also realized something quite simple which I thing was true until quite recently: ethnographic would mostly represent something non-European resulting from manual craft...but then what about the puukko? So I'll stick to the non-industrial bit

Regards,
Emanuel

8th January 2007, 03:25 PM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Interesting thing, the hooking thrust. It reminds me of the Abyssinian shotel, designed to reach opponents around their shields. Wouldn't the shamshir's handle be an obstacle to a hooking strike...one has to twist the fist which feels awckward. TO produce a powerful thrust I image a wide swing is needed, again awckward with the rotated hand. Can your teacher hit a target hard enough to cause hard damage? I think one of the problems presented by Rivkin is that present fighting styles may not reflect actual use centuries ago. It seems to me that something as extraordinary-looking (to an European) as a hooking thrust would have been mentioned in written accounts by many sources and not just in English. I can imagine what the motion would look like, but a video/clip of it would be nice... About ethnographic weapons and European military patterns...I had thought it to refer firstly to weapons created within one specific culture and more or less unique to that culture, and secondly to represent weapons not resulting from industrial processes. As European pattern swords were mass-produced, the sense of cultural craft is maybe lost a little. It is regained when an individual in another land takes the mass-produced blade and alters or refits it to suit his culture - in that action manual craft is involved and each resulting weapon is different from any other. Also realized something quite simple which I thing was true until quite recently: ethnographic would mostly represent something non-European resulting from manual craft...but then what about the puukko? So I'll stick to the non-industrial bit Regards, Emanuel Last edited by Manolo; 8th January 2007 at 03:45 PM.

8th January 2007, 12:17 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi, I am one of those guilty of posting some British military pattern swords....but I feel there is some relevence to the topic of Ethnographic edged weapons. Colonial rule by European powers introduced Africa , India, SEA etc.to external influences in weapon design and manufacture.(and of course the other way round) The trade in European blades to the local inhabitants increased the creation of 'Hybrids' of manufactured blade with local hilting styles and local modification. It also helps to put into context the weapons faced by the defending local people with their ethnic edged weapons, armour and tactics. Could it be argued that the Tulwar, even with the variation in blade design, curveature etc. is a 'pattern' sword? I have tried to acquire some 'Colonial' period swords to 'balance' those Ethnographic ones of the same period. For instance I acquired a Wilkinson light cavalry sabre and a Sudanese Kaskara from the same source. It is quite likely that the Sabre and Kaskara 'met' in the Mahdist Sudan. (further research, hopefully will confirm this) To me that makes them a 'pair' and relavent to my Ethnographic collection.

8th January 2007, 12:41 PM	#2
Alan62 Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 164	Very interesting thread, Please help a novice understand,does the term ethnographic define an ethnicity or a region as it seems to be a word defining both and to this very new guy would seem to describe anything that is of a people or culture and from a region or specific geographic location.I guess I should go look the word up in a dictionary since i have not done that yet,but I will. Again very good thread Thanks for the information