Balinese kris from Polish Museum

wolviex · 18th February 2005, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

that's a very interesting pattern you show on the blade. It reminds me of the "ladder" effect seen on some Indo-Persian wootz blades. Do you think the blade pattern here is caused by a similar forging process?
Ian.

Ian: that's what I'm trying to find out

. So now let's wait together, maybe one of our friends from "kris sindicate" will have some ideas about it

Ian · 18th February 2005, 09:40 PM

for word from the illuminati, there was a nice discussion before of Mohammed's Ladder (kirk narduban) and wootz blades here: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000490.html

There is no reason I can see why the same pattern could not be created with pattern welded steel.

ian.

DAHenkel · 19th February 2005, 08:51 AM

I've been refraining from comment on this in the hopes that s/o with specific knowledge of keris metallurgy would chime in. Its an area in which I have no real specialist knowledge however, the curious consistency of the "pamor" metal on this blade suggests to me high silicate levels.

Could this then be meteoritic? It would certainly suggest a reason for the high esteem of this particular blade.

Empu Kumis! Where are you?

nechesh · 23rd February 2005, 01:49 AM

Well Dave, be prepared to be shocked.

While i have certainly found passing mention of gonjo iras it is usually just to say something like, this blade is "gonjo iras meaning that it was formed in a single piece with the blade" (The Invincible Krises, pg 104). Never have i come across an explanation for this form. While i appreciate the inclination towards laziness (i am a card carrying member of that club myself

) i am afraid that "chapter and verse" would be really handy here. I am also afraid (much to my chagrin) that i have not had the opportunity to pick up any first-hand information taking with people around the archipelego, but those i have discussed this subject with who have had that opportunity (the dreaded second-hand information

) have not come to your conclusion. Though i don't necessarily agree with this train of thought, it would seem that the popular mystical belief of today as put forth by Harsrinuksmo would be that keris gonjo iras are not true keris at all. See rule #1 on this website: http://www.geocities.com/javakeris/kerisology.htm
Of course, what is believed true by the mystical community in regards to keris today is not necessarily what was believed last century or the one before that or the one before that. Still, i would like to find at least a single written reference that directly addresses this subject.

DAHenkel · 23rd February 2005, 04:59 PM

Definition of iras: short form of se-iras or in one piece or as one with. In other words keris ganja iras do have a ganja. It is one with or forged together with the rest of the blade.

Do come out and visit the tanah air some time Nechesh. Smell the air, taste the water, kick the dirt around a little and talk to some folks.

nechesh · 23rd February 2005, 10:09 PM

Well, you know Dave, thanks to the modern technology known as the internet, i do get to "talk to some folks". Some of them are very knowledgable indeed, they just happen to disagree with you. But their source of this point of knowledge is just as vague as yours, so being the reasonable and inquistive Philistine that i am, i question it as well. I am not saying you are wrong, i am just seeking references to the truth. Besides it just being a point of interest it is also an import question to answer in regards to determining the origins of the keris presented in this thread. If you are too lazy (your own word) or sure of yourself to take the trouble to look them up (as you have implied that they exist) to the edification of myself and this forum, that's just fine with me. I will continue my search for some real and tangible data elsewhere. Sorry, but i'm just not willing to take your word for it. And i don't particularly appreciate your sarcastic and snarky responses to my questions and statements, as this is not the way i have carried myself throughout this discussion.

wolviex · 23rd February 2005, 10:38 PM

DAHenkel and Nechesh - dear forumites!
Please bury the hatchet - I was so happy because of your help, answers and ongoing discussion that your possible quarrel at this thread will make me very sad

.
I hope for your further help !

Best regards for both of you !

Rick · 23rd February 2005, 11:13 PM

" Please bury the hatchet - I was so happy because of your help, answers and ongoing discussion that your possible quarrel at this thread will make me very sad .
I hope for your further help !"

Well Wolviex , you have beat me to it .
As Smokey Robinson sang : "I second that emotion ."

nechesh · 24th February 2005, 02:17 AM

As far as i am concerned there is no hatchet to bury. I am just seeking solid evidence to yet another of the many mysteries the keris presents. In that i wish only to be treated with respect and equality. If am am mistaken about the tone i am sensing from Dave's replies, then i am sorry, my bad.

18th February 2005, 09:40 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,453	While we wait ... for word from the illuminati, there was a nice discussion before of Mohammed's Ladder (kirk narduban) and wootz blades here: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000490.html There is no reason I can see why the same pattern could not be created with pattern welded steel. ian.

19th February 2005, 08:51 AM	#3
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	I've been refraining from comment on this in the hopes that s/o with specific knowledge of keris metallurgy would chime in. Its an area in which I have no real specialist knowledge however, the curious consistency of the "pamor" metal on this blade suggests to me high silicate levels. Could this then be meteoritic? It would certainly suggest a reason for the high esteem of this particular blade. Empu Kumis! Where are you?

23rd February 2005, 01:49 AM	#4
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Well Dave, be prepared to be shocked. While i have certainly found passing mention of gonjo iras it is usually just to say something like, this blade is "gonjo iras meaning that it was formed in a single piece with the blade" (The Invincible Krises, pg 104). Never have i come across an explanation for this form. While i appreciate the inclination towards laziness (i am a card carrying member of that club myself ) i am afraid that "chapter and verse" would be really handy here. I am also afraid (much to my chagrin) that i have not had the opportunity to pick up any first-hand information taking with people around the archipelego, but those i have discussed this subject with who have had that opportunity (the dreaded second-hand information ) have not come to your conclusion. Though i don't necessarily agree with this train of thought, it would seem that the popular mystical belief of today as put forth by Harsrinuksmo would be that keris gonjo iras are not true keris at all. See rule #1 on this website: http://www.geocities.com/javakeris/kerisology.htm Of course, what is believed true by the mystical community in regards to keris today is not necessarily what was believed last century or the one before that or the one before that. Still, i would like to find at least a single written reference that directly addresses this subject.

23rd February 2005, 04:59 PM	#5
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	Definition of iras: short form of se-iras or in one piece or as one with. In other words keris ganja iras do have a ganja. It is one with or forged together with the rest of the blade. Do come out and visit the tanah air some time Nechesh. Smell the air, taste the water, kick the dirt around a little and talk to some folks.

23rd February 2005, 10:09 PM	#6
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Well, you know Dave, thanks to the modern technology known as the internet, i do get to "talk to some folks". Some of them are very knowledgable indeed, they just happen to disagree with you. But their source of this point of knowledge is just as vague as yours, so being the reasonable and inquistive Philistine that i am, i question it as well. I am not saying you are wrong, i am just seeking references to the truth. Besides it just being a point of interest it is also an import question to answer in regards to determining the origins of the keris presented in this thread. If you are too lazy (your own word) or sure of yourself to take the trouble to look them up (as you have implied that they exist) to the edification of myself and this forum, that's just fine with me. I will continue my search for some real and tangible data elsewhere. Sorry, but i'm just not willing to take your word for it. And i don't particularly appreciate your sarcastic and snarky responses to my questions and statements, as this is not the way i have carried myself throughout this discussion.

23rd February 2005, 10:38 PM	#7
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	DAHenkel and Nechesh - dear forumites! Please bury the hatchet - I was so happy because of your help, answers and ongoing discussion that your possible quarrel at this thread will make me very sad . I hope for your further help ! Best regards for both of you !

23rd February 2005, 11:13 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	" Please bury the hatchet - I was so happy because of your help, answers and ongoing discussion that your possible quarrel at this thread will make me very sad . I hope for your further help !" Well Wolviex , you have beat me to it . As Smokey Robinson sang : "I second that emotion ."

24th February 2005, 02:17 AM	#9
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	As far as i am concerned there is no hatchet to bury. I am just seeking solid evidence to yet another of the many mysteries the keris presents. In that i wish only to be treated with respect and equality. If am am mistaken about the tone i am sensing from Dave's replies, then i am sorry, my bad.