African spears. Tourist stuff or genuine weapons?

Tim Simmons · 4th January 2007, 05:03 PM

These look like real ones to me. I like the White Nile/Ingassana one. The dance spear is very interesting although dare I say a little crude rather than simple. The other one, I can only think it must be the northern extreme of it range of use. Perhaps that is why it does not match the quality of the true Massai type. Especially if you think it was collected in the early 1930s.

paolo · 4th January 2007, 05:23 PM

Tim,
Let me explain better. Only the last two spears were collected in the early 1930s; I bought the Massai type in the early 1970s, (when I was more inexperienced than now) in an ethnic store of my city, and so I presume it probably is a tourist stuff.
Regards and thank you for the inputs
Paolo

Tim Simmons · 4th January 2007, 05:49 PM

Well that seems more like it. It is not terrible, I have seen far worse tourist spears.

katana · 4th January 2007, 07:08 PM

Does anyone know how to ID 'lion spears' that originate from the Masai and those from the Samburu tribe in Kenya ? Or is this a situation where blacksmiths made them to the exact same 'pattern'.

Tim Simmons · 5th January 2007, 04:09 PM

This is interesting. http://www.maasai-association.org/lion.html. If I have read this correctly, the inference is that the spear is thrown, solo or group hunting. Whether this was the same in the past I do not know. The "lion spears" I have all seem far to heavy to throw more than say 10 feet with any accuracy and control. The leaf shaped blade hunting javelin also common to most of East Africa as the "lion spear" type, would be better in my mind? I wonder if "lion spear" is a European view or misinterpretation? Could the lion be a reference to the warrior? It seems such a well traveled and evocative term that is unusually hard to find good information on and verification of lion killing use.

katana · 5th January 2007, 05:28 PM

Hi Tim,
here are many references about the initiation rites of the Masai...in relation to Lions....This is an exert from an on-line obituary......about a very extraordinary individual...

Jean-Pierre Hallet died on January 1, 2004, at the age of 76. He was internationally renowned as an africanist, ethnologist, sociologist, humanitarian, agronomist, naturalist, author, lecturer, explorer, photographer, cinematographer, artist, African art authority and collector, and death-defying adventurer. He was best known and revered, however, as the world authority on the culture, languages, and history of African pygmies in general and the Ituri Forest Efé clan of the Bambuti pygmies in particular......

.....In the years from 1950 to 1957 beginning when he was 23, Jean-Pierre was initiated into a number of African tribal secret societies, making him a blood-brother of the Lega (Bwama Secret Society), the Masai, the Tutsi (Watutsi), and the Nande. The Masai initiation is one that few non-Masai would dream of attempting: to kill a charging lion with a spear while enclosed within a circle of Masai warriors. This, he somehow accomplished with a combination of bravado, strength, determination and discipline, all characteristics that typified his entire life.......

The references I have read state that the 'lion' spear is NOT thrown.....as the charging lion approaches the warrior.....the 'but' spike is placed in the ground and held, at an angle, pointing at the lion. Once the lion pounces or jumps it is 'skewed' on the end of the spear......the anchored spike ensures that the full force of the Lions momentum is ...in effect used against itself.
The design of the blade, ie long and sword like ensures maximum damage to vital organs, blood vessels and nerves and therefor a very quick death.....USUALLY. A misplaced strike would leave the animal severly wounded, but not 'instantly' dead and this could be ......and has been ....fatal to the spear wielder.

Tim Simmons · 5th January 2007, 05:42 PM

Thanks David very interesting, rather him than me, I prefer blue jeans over brown trousers

Another problem to add to the mix. It is often said and in good sources that the "lion spear" type did not appear in use untill the very late 19th century. The old form being just as big a spear but a shorter broad leaf blade. Is this also a "lion spear"? One might be able to use it in the same way.

VANDOO · 5th January 2007, 05:57 PM

FROM WHAT LITTLE I KNOW ABOUT THE MASAI IN THE PAST THE CUSTOM WAS FOR A YOUNG WARRIOR TO KILL A LION WITH A LION SPEAR. I HAVE SEEN A FILM OF THIS ACTUALLY BEING DONE WEATHER IT WAS THE REAL WAY IT WAS DONE OR JUST DONE FOR THE FILM I DON'T KNOW. THE WAY IT WENT WAS A GROUP OF WARRIORS SURROUNDED A LION THE CHOSEN WARRIOR WOULD APPROCH THE LION WITH HIS SHIELD AND SPEAR AND TAUNT IT INTO CHARGEING. HE WOULD PLANT THE SPEAR BUTT AND LET THE LION RUN ON TO IT AND HE WOULD BE KNOCKED OVER BUT PROTECTED BY HIS SHIELD. AS SOON AS THE LION KNOCKED HIM OVER THE OTHERS WOULD CHARGE IN AND DISTRACT AND SPEAR THE LION. THE OTHERS USED THE OTHER TYPE OF SPEAR WHICH COULD ALSO BE THROWN THE LION WOULD BE KILLED AND THE WARRIOR WOULD HAVE PROVED HIS BRAVERY BY TAKEING THE CHARGE AND WOULD MAKE HIS WARRIOR HAT OUT OF THE FUR OF THE LION. I COULD BE WRONG ON SOME OF THIS BUT I THINK THE LION SPEAR WAS ONLY USED FOR LIONS OR CEREMONY NOT FOR HUNTING OR FIGHTING ON CATTLE RAIDS SO IT WAS MORE OF A SYMBOL OF BRAVERY THAN WEAPON. THE WARRIOR ON THE RIGHT IN THE MASAI PICTURE ABOVE HAS A LION SKIN HEADRESS.

MANY OF THE SPEARS TODAY WERE MADE BY FACTORYS AND BROUGHT IN AND ARE NOT AS CRUDE AS THE OLDER LOCALY MADE ONES. SOME MAY HAVE BEEN HAMMERED OUT BY THE LOCALS TO BE SOLD AS SOUVINEERS AND MAY NOT HAVE HAD THE TEMPER TO BE A VERY GOOD WEAPON. I ALSO SUSPECT THAT SOME OF THE GOOD OLD NATIVE MADE ONES HAD POOR TEMPER AND WERE PRONE TO BEND ESPECIALLY THE VERY LONG POINTS ON LION SPEARS. THE QUESTION IS IF A MECHANIC BUYS A WRENCH IT IS A TOOL IF A TOURIST BUYS A WRENCH IT IS A SOUVINEER.

Tim Simmons · 5th January 2007, 06:04 PM

I guess it depends if it is a "Snap-on" or a cheap one from India or China. I am done with fiddling with cars, when mine cause problems over £500 they go to the scrap yard and I get another one road worthy for roughly the same price.

5th January 2007, 06:04 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	I guess it depends if it is a "Snap-on" or a cheap one from India or China. I am done with fiddling with cars, when mine cause problems over £500 they go to the scrap yard and I get another one road worthy for roughly the same price. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 5th January 2007 at 06:29 PM.

4th January 2007, 05:03 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	These look like real ones to me. I like the White Nile/Ingassana one. The dance spear is very interesting although dare I say a little crude rather than simple. The other one, I can only think it must be the northern extreme of it range of use. Perhaps that is why it does not match the quality of the true Massai type. Especially if you think it was collected in the early 1930s.

4th January 2007, 05:23 PM	#2
paolo Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 173	Tim, Let me explain better. Only the last two spears were collected in the early 1930s; I bought the Massai type in the early 1970s, (when I was more inexperienced than now) in an ethnic store of my city, and so I presume it probably is a tourist stuff. Regards and thank you for the inputs Paolo

4th January 2007, 05:49 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Well that seems more like it. It is not terrible, I have seen far worse tourist spears.

4th January 2007, 07:08 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Does anyone know how to ID 'lion spears' that originate from the Masai and those from the Samburu tribe in Kenya ? Or is this a situation where blacksmiths made them to the exact same 'pattern'.

5th January 2007, 04:09 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	This is interesting. http://www.maasai-association.org/lion.html. If I have read this correctly, the inference is that the spear is thrown, solo or group hunting. Whether this was the same in the past I do not know. The "lion spears" I have all seem far to heavy to throw more than say 10 feet with any accuracy and control. The leaf shaped blade hunting javelin also common to most of East Africa as the "lion spear" type, would be better in my mind? I wonder if "lion spear" is a European view or misinterpretation? Could the lion be a reference to the warrior? It seems such a well traveled and evocative term that is unusually hard to find good information on and verification of lion killing use.

5th January 2007, 05:28 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Tim, here are many references about the initiation rites of the Masai...in relation to Lions....This is an exert from an on-line obituary......about a very extraordinary individual... Jean-Pierre Hallet died on January 1, 2004, at the age of 76. He was internationally renowned as an africanist, ethnologist, sociologist, humanitarian, agronomist, naturalist, author, lecturer, explorer, photographer, cinematographer, artist, African art authority and collector, and death-defying adventurer. He was best known and revered, however, as the world authority on the culture, languages, and history of African pygmies in general and the Ituri Forest Efé clan of the Bambuti pygmies in particular...... .....In the years from 1950 to 1957 beginning when he was 23, Jean-Pierre was initiated into a number of African tribal secret societies, making him a blood-brother of the Lega (Bwama Secret Society), the Masai, the Tutsi (Watutsi), and the Nande. The Masai initiation is one that few non-Masai would dream of attempting: to kill a charging lion with a spear while enclosed within a circle of Masai warriors. This, he somehow accomplished with a combination of bravado, strength, determination and discipline, all characteristics that typified his entire life....... The references I have read state that the 'lion' spear is NOT thrown.....as the charging lion approaches the warrior.....the 'but' spike is placed in the ground and held, at an angle, pointing at the lion. Once the lion pounces or jumps it is 'skewed' on the end of the spear......the anchored spike ensures that the full force of the Lions momentum is ...in effect used against itself. The design of the blade, ie long and sword like ensures maximum damage to vital organs, blood vessels and nerves and therefor a very quick death.....USUALLY. A misplaced strike would leave the animal severly wounded, but not 'instantly' dead and this could be ......and has been ....fatal to the spear wielder.

5th January 2007, 05:42 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Thanks David very interesting, rather him than me, I prefer blue jeans over brown trousers Another problem to add to the mix. It is often said and in good sources that the "lion spear" type did not appear in use untill the very late 19th century. The old form being just as big a spear but a shorter broad leaf blade. Is this also a "lion spear"? One might be able to use it in the same way.

5th January 2007, 05:57 PM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	FROM WHAT LITTLE I KNOW ABOUT THE MASAI IN THE PAST THE CUSTOM WAS FOR A YOUNG WARRIOR TO KILL A LION WITH A LION SPEAR. I HAVE SEEN A FILM OF THIS ACTUALLY BEING DONE WEATHER IT WAS THE REAL WAY IT WAS DONE OR JUST DONE FOR THE FILM I DON'T KNOW. THE WAY IT WENT WAS A GROUP OF WARRIORS SURROUNDED A LION THE CHOSEN WARRIOR WOULD APPROCH THE LION WITH HIS SHIELD AND SPEAR AND TAUNT IT INTO CHARGEING. HE WOULD PLANT THE SPEAR BUTT AND LET THE LION RUN ON TO IT AND HE WOULD BE KNOCKED OVER BUT PROTECTED BY HIS SHIELD. AS SOON AS THE LION KNOCKED HIM OVER THE OTHERS WOULD CHARGE IN AND DISTRACT AND SPEAR THE LION. THE OTHERS USED THE OTHER TYPE OF SPEAR WHICH COULD ALSO BE THROWN THE LION WOULD BE KILLED AND THE WARRIOR WOULD HAVE PROVED HIS BRAVERY BY TAKEING THE CHARGE AND WOULD MAKE HIS WARRIOR HAT OUT OF THE FUR OF THE LION. I COULD BE WRONG ON SOME OF THIS BUT I THINK THE LION SPEAR WAS ONLY USED FOR LIONS OR CEREMONY NOT FOR HUNTING OR FIGHTING ON CATTLE RAIDS SO IT WAS MORE OF A SYMBOL OF BRAVERY THAN WEAPON. THE WARRIOR ON THE RIGHT IN THE MASAI PICTURE ABOVE HAS A LION SKIN HEADRESS. MANY OF THE SPEARS TODAY WERE MADE BY FACTORYS AND BROUGHT IN AND ARE NOT AS CRUDE AS THE OLDER LOCALY MADE ONES. SOME MAY HAVE BEEN HAMMERED OUT BY THE LOCALS TO BE SOLD AS SOUVINEERS AND MAY NOT HAVE HAD THE TEMPER TO BE A VERY GOOD WEAPON. I ALSO SUSPECT THAT SOME OF THE GOOD OLD NATIVE MADE ONES HAD POOR TEMPER AND WERE PRONE TO BEND ESPECIALLY THE VERY LONG POINTS ON LION SPEARS. THE QUESTION IS IF A MECHANIC BUYS A WRENCH IT IS A TOOL IF A TOURIST BUYS A WRENCH IT IS A SOUVINEER.