New guy

katana · 3rd January 2007, 06:17 PM

Hi nKante,
if cow hide is used you could 'harden' it by this method....

Basically Cuir Bouilli is a means of making hardened and stiffened leather. Although there is some disagreement among some leatherworkers as to how this is accomplished, there is a significant amount of evidence to think that it was done by molding wet vegetable tanned leather. This leather can be formed into any number of forms, which, on drying, will retain that shape. The wet leather can be set more firmly by drying it under moderate heat, the degree of rigidity obtained being determined by the drying temperature. A faster method, which produces extremely hard and rigid shapes, is to dip the molded leather into boiling water for anywhere from 20 to 120 seconds. This technique causes the partial melting of the fixed tannin aggregates in the leather, making them plastic, causing them to flow and redistribute themselves throughout the fiber network of the leather. On cooling, the fibers become embedded in what can best be called a tough, three-dimensional, polymer network or resin, somewhat similar to the materials made by condensing formaldehyde with substances such as phenol, urea or melamine.

The molding of leather was known in Saxon times in England, and was widely practiced during the middle ages in both England and on the Continent.

LINK WITH MORE INFO
http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc...eather/hl.html

It may be worth considering 'scrap' metal rather than new......an old immersion hot water cylinder would provide quite a few scales. Although the metal alloy is mainly copper.....it wouldn't be a bad substitute for bronze.(in appearance). I believe the thickness is around 1.5 mm and being 'relatively soft' could be cut to shape with hand held metal cutters. An added bonus would be that the scales would have a very slight curve....similar to Pangolin scales.

P.S. My Avatar is from a Benin Bronze Plaque

Tim Simmons · 3rd January 2007, 08:00 PM

Some more silly info. In the old African traditions the Pangolin along with other animals are very special as they cross worlds. The Pangolin can be seen as a fish that lives on land, something similar applies to the Crocodile. This crossing of worlds means they tend to be relevant to beliefs/religion and can be see as being capable of delivering messages from one world to the next.

katana · 3rd January 2007, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Some more silly info.

If thats the case.....a bit more silliness...

The most important anomalous creature among the Lele is the pangolin (manis tricuspis). It has, the Lele explain, the tail and body of a fish, and it is covered with scales, but it gives birth like a mammal. It has four small legs, and climbs trees (Douglas 1975, p. 33). This animal, it turns out, has an important place in the mythology and ritual life of the Lele. There is a cult of fertility centred on it. The reason, argues Douglas, is that the pangolin is anomalous in a crucial way: in addition to everything else, it gives birth to only one offspring at the time. In this regard, it resembles a human more than an animal. Just as the parents of twins and triplets (who are also anomalies on this score) are seen as mediators between the human and the spiritual worlds, the pangolin is seen as a mediator between humanity and the animal world.

katana · 3rd January 2007, 09:58 PM

I also found this about the The Lega [sometimes Rega]..... a tribe found in the west of the Democratic Republic of the Congo.....

. As the Bwami initiate rises in rank so to does the quality and power of his or her regalia. Some materials are restricted as to who can wear them either by prohibi-tion or by financial cost. A hat made from a Pangolin skin [a scaly anteater] may only be worn by the chief, who must have hunted the animal himself. Where as cowries are allowed for the lower level initiates.

I am beginning to think that Pagalin Scale armour was the reserve of the trully elite.....The mystical attributes of the Pangolin, the less common 'armour' seen on the Benin plaques, the fact that a number of tribes saw the Pangolin 'scale' as a more expensive item compared to the Cowry Shell (which was highly desirable and highly valued), that some tribes felt that Pangolin was the reserve of kings.........

....I wonder how much of the protection offered by the scale armour was mystical......a defence against worldly weapons and spiritual attacks...

Emanuel · 4th January 2007, 12:35 AM

Very interesting information!

So this is a sort of armadillo, no? I wonder how many animals were required to produce the scale shirt. Would one single large specimen be sufficient? What would make this material more expensive to use then cowry shells? The rarity of the animal, the difficulty in processing/sewings its scales together, or simply its mythical/religious association?
You mention cow hide...in this case, would the pangolin hide be used whole, or would the scales be removed and sown to cow hide or other materials?

nKante, I can see how you fell in love. That scale suit is magnificent!! There's something about the way each scale catches the light, and how each slides over the others...very graceful/delicate in a way. Recalls the image of the mythril maille/scale in Tolkien lore.

Emanuel

katana · 4th January 2007, 06:02 PM

Hi Emanuel,
I am not certain as to why the scales were so expensive....but I would speculate that an animal which was revered and had few natural preditors would thrive. One of the advantages of having Pangolin living nearby was they kept the ant/termite population down. I would imagine that there were sufficent numbers but due to the belief system ....few would be killed for their scales. It appears that only certain individuals had the authority to kill the animals.......perhaps this is the reason the scales were so valuable because of their scacity.
The pandolin is now an endangered species.......the scales are used in Chinese medicine. In Africa, today......many have been killed for 'bushmeat'...perhaps after colonialism and the import of Religion , the animalistic belief system, perhaps 'broke down'.....and animals once revered are now considered 'fair game'.
I cannot find any references to the construction of African scale armour.....but as 'padded' armour seems common to the Region....it would seem likely that the scales were fixed to a padded garment. Other than the head gear mentioned in a previous thread, I can find no other reference to the hide (with scales) being used on its own. I can only assume that the scales were used individually.....perhaps the scales could easily (relatively) be seperated from the hide (not good for armour) and/or the scales are 'sized' and placed where necessary......smaller ones in areas of greatest movement(arms, shoulders) and larger ones for the chest and back.

Seeing that the pangolin is seen as a mediator between humanity and the animal world. I am wondering whether the armour was believed to endow the wearer with 'animalistic characteristics' whilst in battle.

The Indian scale armour, I posted, is covered in gold leaf....hence its enhanced beauty. The scales are made of keratin (as is hair, nails and Rhino horn) and I would imagine could easily be dyed with red ochre (as it easily stains hair).

nKante · 4th January 2007, 11:42 PM

I am sure that the scale suits were reserved for royals and special people. The only other example I found besides the chiefs were members of the Leopard Hunter guild, and they only mention them wearing helmets made of scales. From the pictures I've seen, they are big enough to get a helmet, maybe two, from one animal. I'm guessing it took at least 10 pangolins to construct the suit represented on the plaque. My scales are about 3.5x5.5 inches. I estimate needing about 325 for my suit (I'm no light weight). My hide is raw, hair attached. I used an iron to cuir bouilli. Each scale started out at 4x6 inches. I've only cooked about 100 so far but it is much faster than my first project. Last winter I use domestic rawhide to replicate a leopard breast plate. After cutting the shapes needed I cooked the piece in a brick oven I rigged in the yard (the nieghbors keep asking what smelled so good). It came out rock hard, yet not brittle. Maybe due to fact that the hide was one day off the cow, flesh and fat still clinging. I then added grommets to simulate leopard spots. It has taken a beating for the last year with no failures or injuries. If I get a chance I'll post pics of both projects.

3rd January 2007, 06:17 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi nKante, if cow hide is used you could 'harden' it by this method.... Basically Cuir Bouilli is a means of making hardened and stiffened leather. Although there is some disagreement among some leatherworkers as to how this is accomplished, there is a significant amount of evidence to think that it was done by molding wet vegetable tanned leather. This leather can be formed into any number of forms, which, on drying, will retain that shape. The wet leather can be set more firmly by drying it under moderate heat, the degree of rigidity obtained being determined by the drying temperature. A faster method, which produces extremely hard and rigid shapes, is to dip the molded leather into boiling water for anywhere from 20 to 120 seconds. This technique causes the partial melting of the fixed tannin aggregates in the leather, making them plastic, causing them to flow and redistribute themselves throughout the fiber network of the leather. On cooling, the fibers become embedded in what can best be called a tough, three-dimensional, polymer network or resin, somewhat similar to the materials made by condensing formaldehyde with substances such as phenol, urea or melamine. The molding of leather was known in Saxon times in England, and was widely practiced during the middle ages in both England and on the Continent. LINK WITH MORE INFO http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc...eather/hl.html It may be worth considering 'scrap' metal rather than new......an old immersion hot water cylinder would provide quite a few scales. Although the metal alloy is mainly copper.....it wouldn't be a bad substitute for bronze.(in appearance). I believe the thickness is around 1.5 mm and being 'relatively soft' could be cut to shape with hand held metal cutters. An added bonus would be that the scales would have a very slight curve....similar to Pangolin scales. P.S. My Avatar is from a Benin Bronze Plaque

3rd January 2007, 08:00 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Some more silly info. In the old African traditions the Pangolin along with other animals are very special as they cross worlds. The Pangolin can be seen as a fish that lives on land, something similar applies to the Crocodile. This crossing of worlds means they tend to be relevant to beliefs/religion and can be see as being capable of delivering messages from one world to the next.

3rd January 2007, 09:58 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I also found this about the The Lega [sometimes Rega]..... a tribe found in the west of the Democratic Republic of the Congo..... . As the Bwami initiate rises in rank so to does the quality and power of his or her regalia. Some materials are restricted as to who can wear them either by prohibi-tion or by financial cost. A hat made from a Pangolin skin [a scaly anteater] may only be worn by the chief, who must have hunted the animal himself. Where as cowries are allowed for the lower level initiates. I am beginning to think that Pagalin Scale armour was the reserve of the trully elite.....The mystical attributes of the Pangolin, the less common 'armour' seen on the Benin plaques, the fact that a number of tribes saw the Pangolin 'scale' as a more expensive item compared to the Cowry Shell (which was highly desirable and highly valued), that some tribes felt that Pangolin was the reserve of kings......... ....I wonder how much of the protection offered by the scale armour was mystical......a defence against worldly weapons and spiritual attacks...

4th January 2007, 12:35 AM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Very interesting information! So this is a sort of armadillo, no? I wonder how many animals were required to produce the scale shirt. Would one single large specimen be sufficient? What would make this material more expensive to use then cowry shells? The rarity of the animal, the difficulty in processing/sewings its scales together, or simply its mythical/religious association? You mention cow hide...in this case, would the pangolin hide be used whole, or would the scales be removed and sown to cow hide or other materials? nKante, I can see how you fell in love. That scale suit is magnificent!! There's something about the way each scale catches the light, and how each slides over the others...very graceful/delicate in a way. Recalls the image of the mythril maille/scale in Tolkien lore. Emanuel

4th January 2007, 06:02 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Emanuel, I am not certain as to why the scales were so expensive....but I would speculate that an animal which was revered and had few natural preditors would thrive. One of the advantages of having Pangolin living nearby was they kept the ant/termite population down. I would imagine that there were sufficent numbers but due to the belief system ....few would be killed for their scales. It appears that only certain individuals had the authority to kill the animals.......perhaps this is the reason the scales were so valuable because of their scacity. The pandolin is now an endangered species.......the scales are used in Chinese medicine. In Africa, today......many have been killed for 'bushmeat'...perhaps after colonialism and the import of Religion , the animalistic belief system, perhaps 'broke down'.....and animals once revered are now considered 'fair game'. I cannot find any references to the construction of African scale armour.....but as 'padded' armour seems common to the Region....it would seem likely that the scales were fixed to a padded garment. Other than the head gear mentioned in a previous thread, I can find no other reference to the hide (with scales) being used on its own. I can only assume that the scales were used individually.....perhaps the scales could easily (relatively) be seperated from the hide (not good for armour) and/or the scales are 'sized' and placed where necessary......smaller ones in areas of greatest movement(arms, shoulders) and larger ones for the chest and back. Seeing that the pangolin is seen as a mediator between humanity and the animal world. I am wondering whether the armour was believed to endow the wearer with 'animalistic characteristics' whilst in battle. The Indian scale armour, I posted, is covered in gold leaf....hence its enhanced beauty. The scales are made of keratin (as is hair, nails and Rhino horn) and I would imagine could easily be dyed with red ochre (as it easily stains hair).

4th January 2007, 11:42 PM	#7
nKante Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Philly Posts: 72	I am sure that the scale suits were reserved for royals and special people. The only other example I found besides the chiefs were members of the Leopard Hunter guild, and they only mention them wearing helmets made of scales. From the pictures I've seen, they are big enough to get a helmet, maybe two, from one animal. I'm guessing it took at least 10 pangolins to construct the suit represented on the plaque. My scales are about 3.5x5.5 inches. I estimate needing about 325 for my suit (I'm no light weight). My hide is raw, hair attached. I used an iron to cuir bouilli. Each scale started out at 4x6 inches. I've only cooked about 100 so far but it is much faster than my first project. Last winter I use domestic rawhide to replicate a leopard breast plate. After cutting the shapes needed I cooked the piece in a brick oven I rigged in the yard (the nieghbors keep asking what smelled so good). It came out rock hard, yet not brittle. Maybe due to fact that the hide was one day off the cow, flesh and fat still clinging. I then added grommets to simulate leopard spots. It has taken a beating for the last year with no failures or injuries. If I get a chance I'll post pics of both projects.