HISTORY OF STEEL IN EASTERN ASIA EXHIBITION NOW ONLINE

[Spunjer]

i can only speak in the field that i'm familiar with, therefore when you said:

I find speaking to the "carriers of the culture" to be a complete waste of time, unless this culture indeed used swords at most 50 years ago.

it made me chuckle. here's an old thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1114

with pics to boot, taken in the 60's (attaching one):

"Isa and Musa said" for me is basically nothing.

yep, i'm with you on that one. there are a whole lot of isas and the musas in the internet forums, therefore to gain knowledge, one must do his own research, like i mentioned earlier. Archives, records of early travelers, old training manuals, archeology - though it makes good references, it still has a lot of descripancies due to translation problem at that point in time. how many terms has been misunderstood due to not knowing the language, or just plain ignorance of the culture? what was interpreted as welcoming salute became interpreted as an agressive gesture?

Concerning the dates of undeclared wars - typically there are always a few hundred of guerillas that continue to fight even after the time when large battles are over. Which brings in the question whether we qualify their actions as organized crime, terrorism or a continuation of the war ? In the latter case how large a number "guerillas" merits the extenstion of the war's timeline ?

don't wanna get into details about history but since you brought this one up: this depends on what side you're on. one man's terrorist/insurgent is another man's freedom fighter.
Sakay, Felizardo, Montalan, de Vega, Malvar, etc. were all considered as ruthless terrorists by the americans at the turn of the century. you don't have to go far on this one. one can read this on hurley's novella. but i guarantee you they weren't considered as terrorists on that part of the world.
in regards to the last part: actually, i don't see this as part of the topic...

[Rivkin]

Unfortunately every single book I have read that was coming up as an ultimate study of weapons, performed by a "culture carrier", about to destroy western myths and misunderstandings of local language and culture, based on author's personal research, in my very personal opinion, was a mere nationalistic BS. Archives, archives, archives, unless the villagers really remember the use of weapons (and if they do they are invaluable), there is very little that can be gained from them.

[David]

Originally Posted by Rivkin

Unfortunately every single book I have read that was coming up as an ultimate study of weapons, performed by a "culture carrier", about to destroy western myths and misunderstandings of local language and culture, based on author's personal research, in my very personal opinion, was a mere nationalistic BS. Archives, archives, archives, unless the villagers really remember the use of weapons (and if they do they are invaluable), there is very little that can be gained from them.

Rivkin, I think due to the prominence of the rifles in the photo Ron posted you may have overlooked the edged weapons in the background that were clearly still in use in this area in the 1960s. I understand that your area of study is not the Philippines, but since it is the topic we are on at the moment you might want to take note that kris and barong certainly have been uses as active weapons in these regions in the past 50 yrs. Therefore you may discover some actual "carriers of culture" in this region that might give you very valid information.
It should be obvious that history is written by the victors and that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. How to rectify contadictions that arise in historical dating due to this will continue to be a question. I would be more concerned about the accurate descrption of the weapons and their history of use than the specifics a when exactly hostilities may have began or ended, but i do understand why these dates are important to some. It seems to me that any fair assessment of history must include the stories on both sides of the battle lines.
I must agree with Spunjer on his take on the study of weapons. We can only learn so much on forums or from books and travelling to the regions our weapons come from should be the goal of any serious collector. Even if one cannot find any true "carriers of culture" to speak with, much can be learned simply by walking amongst the people of the place these weapons come from and immersing ourselves in the whole of their culture. You cannot learn about these things in a vaccum, seperated from the culture of origin.
I feel a loss for anyone who felt the need to walk away from this forum due to their experience with HOS. Regardless of the validity of any claim they might have against HOS, this forum is not HOS. Certainly some here were contributors, but this forum is so much more than that. This forum is made up of the people that participate here, regardless of their connections elsewhere. Everyone here has a free voice, in the context of the rules of civility that exist here. This is place to share knowledge and grow. To leave this forum over this event is as much a loss to self as it is to this forum. Nothing is solved through withdrawal.

[Rivkin]

Please show me where I stated that the swords were not in use in Philipinnes 50 years ago. As I said, I make general statements.

My opinion is very simple: 20 or so years ago it became fashionable for young "easterners", lead by Dr. Said and others, lacking any knowledge of history, religion, archeology, to declare that the western knowledge is invalid and moreover - no matter how much BS the "easterner" puts into his book, he can not be critisized by a "westerner" since the "easterner" is a "culture carrier" (whatever this means) and he once did speak with a village elder (which they call "research").

[Rick]

Let's please keep the tone civil; okay?

[David]

Rivikin, you did not state this. Sorry if you thought i implied so. But after Ron posted the photo to support why speaking with "carriers of culture" is legitimate in the study of Philippines edged weapons you continued to dismiss the practice. I understand that you are speaking generally, but this thread is speaking specifically at the moment about the Philippines, so i see your post as ignoring the evidence that was put before you.
Your opinion was clear and perhaps valid to the area of weapons you are discussing, i am just not convinced that it necessarily applies in our discussion of Filipino weapory.

[VANDOO]

IN MANY AREAS KNIVES AND MACHETE ARE STILL CARRIED AS TOOLS BY THE LOCALS BUT ARE NOT WEAPONS. EDGED WEAPONS ARE STILL CARRIED TODAY ESPECIALLY BY INSURGENTS, FREEDOM FIGHTERS AND TERRORISTS. THEY ARE STILL NECESSARY TO CHOP THRU THE JUNGLE, GET FIRE WOOD AND OTHER CHORES AND MAY EVEN BE USED TO EXECUTE SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN CAPTURED OR KIDNAPPED. BUT NO ONE GOES INTO BATTLE WITH SWORDS, SHIELDS OR SPEARS ANYMORE THE RIFLE ESPECIALLY AK47 IS NOW THE WEAPON OF CHOICE FOR AMBUSH OR ATTACKS.

IN MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD I WOULD BE CONSIDERED AN ELDER AT 60 YEARS OLD BUT I WOULD BE A VERY POOR SOURCE OF INFORMATION ON THE USE OF THE TOMAHAWK AND BOWIE KNIFE. I WAS NOT TRAINED BY MY FAMILY OR TRIBE IN THE USE OF EDGED WEAPONS AS THE CHILDREN WERE IN THE OLD DAYS SO THAT KNOWLEGE HAS BEEN LOST. I HAVE CARRIED POCKET KNIVES, HATCHETS, MACHETE AND HUNTING KNIFES FOR MUCH OF MY LIFE BUT USED THEM AS TOOLS. SO ANY OPINIONS I WOULD HAVE ON ON HOW TO USE THEM IN WARFARE COULD ONLY BE BASED ON WHAT I HAD READ SEEN IN MOVIES OR STORIES I HAD HEARD NOT ACTUAL EXPERIENCE. OFTEN THE STORYS THAT SURVIVE FROM THE OLD TIMES ARE EXZAGERATED TO MAKE THE HEROS SEEM GREATER THAN THEY WERE. FROM MY COUNTRY DANIAL BOONE, DAVY CROCKETT AND JIM BOWIE COME TO MIND THERE IS MORE FICTION THAN FACT IN MOST OF THE STORYS TOLD ABOUT THEM BY THE MEDIA AND THAT IS WHAT MOST OF US KNOW ABOUT THEM. SO UNLESS THE TRIBE IS STILL THE SAME AS IT WAS OVER 200 YEARS AGO THE ELDERS WILL HAVE LOST THE ACTUAL EXPERIENCE AND KNOWLEGE AND ONLY HAVE THE STORYS LEFT. SO ASKING A OLD TRIBAL MEMBER ABOUT HEAD HUNTING WHICH HAS NOT BEEN PRACTICED FOR 200 YEARS WILL ONLY GET YOU STORIES AND PERSONEL OPINIONS NOT FACTS. THE FACTS YOU CAN GET IS HOW THE WEAPON/TOOLS ARE USED TODAY AND PERHAPS THE NAMES OF SOME OF THE ANCESTORS FROM THE OLD DAYS. THE STORYS ABOUT THE ANCESTORS MAY BE ACCURATE OR NOT.

WHILE THE OLD WRITEINGS OF EXPLORERS AND ADVENTURERS HAVE MANY MISTAKES THEY ALSO HAVE SOME VAILD INFORMATION. SO WE JUST REHASH THE OLD WRITEINGS, ANTHROPOLOGICAL STUDYS AND ARCHEOLOGICAL INFORMATION , AND UNTIL NEW WRITEINGS SHOW UP OR THE INVENTION OF THE TIME MACHINE THAT IS ALL WE HAVE.

INTERVIEWS WITH ELDERS CAN STILL BE VALUABLE FOR INFORMATION ON THE SOCIETY AT PRESENT AND WHAT THE HISTORY AND BELIEFS ARE TODAY. BUILDING UP A COMPARATIVE COLLECTION OF WEAPONS FROM A AREA CAN BE PRODUCTIVE AND THE LARGER THE COLLECTION THE BETTER. YOU USE THE FEW EXAMPLES WITH EXCELLENT PROVENANCE AS THE BASELINE AND COMPARE OTHER EXAMPLES TO THEM SOMETIMES IT IS POSSIBLE TO GET APPROXIMATE DATES FOR THEM AND SEE THE CHANGES IN THE TYPE OR LINK DIFFERENT GROUPS BY SIMULARITYS.

[David]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

SO ASKING A OLD TRIBAL MEMBER ABOUT HEAD HUNTING WHICH HAS NOT BEEN PRACTICED FOR 200 YEARS WILL ONLY GET YOU STORIES AND PERSONEL OPINIONS NOT FACTS. THE FACTS YOU CAN GET IS HOW THE WEAPON/TOOLS ARE USED TODAY AND PERHAPS THE NAMES OF SOME OF THE ANCESTORS FROM THE OLD DAYS. THE STORYS ABOUT THE ANCESTORS MAY BE ACCURATE OR NOT.

I might be mistaken, but i believe that some Dayak tribes continued the practice of headhunting well into the 1950s.
I might also be mistaken about this, but i wouldn't be surprised if the gentleman with the barong on his belt in Ron's photo was very well schooled in how to use it as a weapon.
Your point is well taken that the information collected by explorers and adventurers of old are not necessarily invalid. Like all information it should be examined and questioned, but certainly not automatically dismissed.

[Andrew]

Enough, already.