Indo-Persian knife for comment

GuyM · 5th December 2004, 08:10 PM

Wonderful input, thanks to both of you!
Ariel, I can find no marks whatsoever on the blade or the handle, in particular, no Mazar-i-Sharif arsenal stamp.
Does anyone know how this kind of knife is called? Any guess as to its age?

Thanks

spiral · 5th December 2004, 08:56 PM

mmmmm very nice knife!

I had always thought though, that these eared pommel knives{as visible in 2nd. photo} were usualy from the Turkey,Greece or Crete sort of area?

Spiral

Michel · 5th December 2004, 09:05 PM

RSword,

with all due respect, I think that the N°701 of plate XXI of Charles Buttin is really a Pesh Kabz. In his explanation he names it Pich-Qàbz.
I agree with you and Ariel, that knife must come from central Asia.
In the book "bei Shah emir und Khan" discribing the beautiful collection of Henri Moser, page 90, is a knife named "Ptshak". (I will try to join a photo) this is the closest I have found to the knife shown by Guy.
Nowhere have I found a blade with the same curve and cutting on the back and no back reinforcement as the the Pesh Quabz.

Regards
Michel

Ian · 5th December 2004, 09:41 PM

A while back on the old forum I posted pictures of the knife below. The blade shape is similar to the one at the start of this thread, although the hilt is obviously different.

Thoughts then was that my knife was likely from Afghanistan or nearby Central Asia (Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, etc.).

Ian.

spiral · 5th December 2004, 10:33 PM

Fascinating! In this picture it shows an eared handle, do you guys realy think thats central asian? I still say Turkish myself.

Here a knife of mine of similar style with an unusual very fine wootz or laminated steel blade.

I think mine is from India or Russia {Bokarra} but still think the featured eared dagger is from further west, but I am just a collector, nothing more.

Always interested to hear others views though.

Spiral

Rick · 5th December 2004, 10:38 PM

A comment on the piece that started this thread :
What an interesting wootz pattern , I cant get over how 'loose' it is ..

Jim McDougall · 5th December 2004, 10:58 PM

Nice acquisition Guy!
I completely agree with Central Asian attribution, and Ariels notes. This is likely Uzbek from regions closer to now Afghanistan. The most applicable term would probably be 'bytshak' which is spelled various ways. See article "Some Nineteenth Century Arms from Bukhara" by Torben Flindt (in "Islamic Arms & Armour" ed. Robert Elgood, pp.20-29). Rick's note pointing out the pesh kabz in Buttin brings attention to the interesting recurve on the blade which seems atypical in the bytshak. This same recurve is also found on N. Indian khanjars. The interesting chiseling and choil type work on the back of the blade at the terminus of the back edge is also Central Asian characteristic.
The cleft pommel is well known on many Central Asian edged weapons and is seen on examples of Uzbek and Afghan shashkas.
Best regards,
Jim

spiral · 5th December 2004, 11:05 PM

quote "The cleft pommel is well known on many Central Asian edged weapons and is seen on examples of Uzbek and Afghan shashkas.
Best regards,
Jim"

AAAAhhh, I see, thats great, I learn more evry time I visit here.

Spiral

Jeff D · 6th December 2004, 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

A comment on the piece that started this thread :
What an interesting wootz pattern , I cant get over how 'loose' it is ..

Hi All,

I agree with Rick, this is a very strange wootz pattern?? Could this be Arab Damascus?

Jeff

GuyM · 6th December 2004, 08:03 PM

And I learn more than any of you! This is great! Thanks for all the input.

I've attached another picture of the handle, the cleft is quite deep.
The wootz is very pleasent I must say, sort of 'watery'. That's certainly what decided me into buying it. I've attached another picture of the pattern for you enjoyment :-)

5th December 2004, 09:05 PM	#3
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Kard RSword, with all due respect, I think that the N°701 of plate XXI of Charles Buttin is really a Pesh Kabz. In his explanation he names it Pich-Qàbz. I agree with you and Ariel, that knife must come from central Asia. In the book "bei Shah emir und Khan" discribing the beautiful collection of Henri Moser, page 90, is a knife named "Ptshak". (I will try to join a photo) this is the closest I have found to the knife shown by Guy. Nowhere have I found a blade with the same curve and cutting on the back and no back reinforcement as the the Pesh Quabz. Regards Michel

5th December 2004, 09:41 PM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,397	A similar provenance (?) A while back on the old forum I posted pictures of the knife below. The blade shape is similar to the one at the start of this thread, although the hilt is obviously different. Thoughts then was that my knife was likely from Afghanistan or nearby Central Asia (Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, etc.). Ian. Attached Images

5th December 2004, 10:33 PM	#5
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Fascinating! In this picture it shows an eared handle, do you guys realy think thats central asian? I still say Turkish myself. Here a knife of mine of similar style with an unusual very fine wootz or laminated steel blade. I think mine is from India or Russia {Bokarra} but still think the featured eared dagger is from further west, but I am just a collector, nothing more. Always interested to hear others views though. Spiral Attached Images

6th December 2004, 08:03 PM	#10
GuyM Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 18	Bytshak And I learn more than any of you! This is great! Thanks for all the input. I've attached another picture of the handle, the cleft is quite deep. The wootz is very pleasent I must say, sort of 'watery'. That's certainly what decided me into buying it. I've attached another picture of the pattern for you enjoyment :-) Attached Images

5th December 2004, 08:10 PM	#1
GuyM Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 18	Wonderful input, thanks to both of you! Ariel, I can find no marks whatsoever on the blade or the handle, in particular, no Mazar-i-Sharif arsenal stamp. Does anyone know how this kind of knife is called? Any guess as to its age? Thanks

5th December 2004, 08:56 PM	#2
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	mmmmm very nice knife! I had always thought though, that these eared pommel knives{as visible in 2nd. photo} were usualy from the Turkey,Greece or Crete sort of area? Spiral

5th December 2004, 10:38 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	A comment on the piece that started this thread : What an interesting wootz pattern , I cant get over how 'loose' it is ..

5th December 2004, 10:58 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Nice acquisition Guy! I completely agree with Central Asian attribution, and Ariels notes. This is likely Uzbek from regions closer to now Afghanistan. The most applicable term would probably be 'bytshak' which is spelled various ways. See article "Some Nineteenth Century Arms from Bukhara" by Torben Flindt (in "Islamic Arms & Armour" ed. Robert Elgood, pp.20-29). Rick's note pointing out the pesh kabz in Buttin brings attention to the interesting recurve on the blade which seems atypical in the bytshak. This same recurve is also found on N. Indian khanjars. The interesting chiseling and choil type work on the back of the blade at the terminus of the back edge is also Central Asian characteristic. The cleft pommel is well known on many Central Asian edged weapons and is seen on examples of Uzbek and Afghan shashkas. Best regards, Jim

5th December 2004, 11:05 PM	#8
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	quote "The cleft pommel is well known on many Central Asian edged weapons and is seen on examples of Uzbek and Afghan shashkas. Best regards, Jim" AAAAhhh, I see, thats great, I learn more evry time I visit here. Spiral