European Executioner Sword

fernando · 20th December 2006, 09:43 PM

Hi Philip,
As i told you, that was a fantasized illustration, not necessarily good to exemplify the execution instrument used ... just a figure of horizontal stroke.
In fact and considering the inumerous narrations on the Tavoras case, there is no precision on this subject.
In O CASO DOS TAVORAS by Guilherme de Oliveira Santos in 1958, supported by a bibliography of some two hundred works, the instructions of Marquis de Pombal,
the all mighty prime minister, were ( quoting ) "to use a montante ( two handed sword ) or, better, a bullfighting sword, already kept at the Apppeal Judge Oliveira Machado's house".
Cutelos ( cutlasses ) and Machados ( axes ) are quoted in other works, basically all with a romantic touch.
On the other hand i fail to find a relation between a two handed sword and a bullfighting sword, even considering the period in question, and ignoring that XVIII century bullfighting swords were usable for side strokes and all that, also considering a possible Spanish influence intrument.
I am trying hard to find some info about this in the Net, in both Portuguese and Spanish language.
As for the execution being achieved with one only stroke, we could basicaly beleive so, as ( also ) witnessed by Saint Julien, French diplomatic representative, also quoted in the same book.
Amazingly this part of the execution sword is probably the only one with uncertainty, as the "treatment" given to the other individuals seems to be narrated by all with coinciding details.
Besides a tendence from the period to romancize the event, it seems as there wasn't so many witnesses, as all streets going to the scene were blocked by the King's Dragoons, with orders to search everyone's body and stop all those looking suspicious. The sentenced families were very powerfull, actually so much or even more than the King.
If ever i find some trusty version of the weapon actually used, i will come back here to tell about it.
I know there isn't much material written on Portuguese weaponry, but that is a discussion that "would give lots of cloth for sleeves", as we say here. However i would not be the indicated person to feed that discussion, due to my unsuficient scholar level ... i speak and write english "by ear", to start with. My library is next to unexistant, my school grade is next to none. I just happen to fancy buying old publications, as also old weapons ( i am a very recent collector ). Reason why i have a couple books on the Tavoras process, and some dozen books on Inquisition, a theme i got passionate with, since the day somebody sold me an original tome written by one of the most proheminent Jews in the Portuguese XVIII century, Antonio José da Silva, garroted and burnt by the Inquisition .
But in as much as i can be usefull, i will try to help.
Kind regards.
Fernando

Philip · 21st December 2006, 01:16 AM

Fernando,
Amazing. A bullfighting sword? The only ones I am familiar with are the stiff, narrow, stabbing-only ones used in the Spanish "corrida". How can you cut with something like that?

We have Portuguese-style bullfights here in California (the Irmandades do Divino Espirito Santo, founded by Azores immigrants, stage them as part of religious festas), and of course the bulls are not killed but are led out alive after the forcados have their little bit of bruising fun. One man told me that bulls have been left alive in Portugal for well over 300 years. If this is correct, I am surprised that there were such things as bullfighting swords in Portugal.

fernando · 23rd December 2006, 10:55 PM

Hi Philip,
I have done some little researching.
Two things:
Firstly, bullfighting swords, in the beginning, were not those "stiff, narrow, stabbing-only ones used in the Spanish corridas" ( I actually have one of those ).
Secondly, killing the bull in the arena in Portugal only stopped in the XX century.
To start with, long time ago, Iberian nobility went capture the bulls in the country, to bring them in to be fought in enclosures.
There are narrations of a certain Portuguese guy, Gonçalves Viegas, having exhibited in bullfighting in the XII century.
King Dom Duarte (1433 ) is said to have participated himself in "corridas" . Although with popular adhesion since the beginning, these fights had a strong military cynegetic component, actually achieving a higher expression by the XVI century. In Portugal it was King Dom Sebastião whom gave bullfighting a recreation status , developing public events inside enclosures ( arenas ). In 1578 in Xabregas, the said Dom Sebastião, Dom Jaime de bragança, Dom Cristovão de Tavora ( the sadly famous family ) and Dom Luiz de Menezes all participated in a " corrida". By the time of Spanish occupation of Portugal ( The Filipe Kings, as from 1580 ), an Iberian fashion developed in the two countries; no more knights with heavy swords that destroyed the bull, but elegant cavaliers , with lighter swords. In 1575 Pope Gregorio XIII had derrogated Pope Pio V prohibition of such barbarian scenes, which were causing several accidents. The Portuguese side, allways whilling not to copy their Spanish occupiers, decided to submit to the Pope's bull, starting to cut or covering the bulls horns, this becoming their own version. With the coming of the Bourbons dinasty in Spain, bullfighting became a play for plebeians , the nobles becoming the spectators. It started to be afoot, as populars couldn't aford the horses. However in Portugal kings and nobles continued intervening in bullfighting as principal actors. Only in 1745, by Dom João V realm, horns were nude again, "a la Spaniard", people would call it. Arrivin King Dom Jose to the throne ( 1750 ), nobles and aristrocats kept fighting, but already using some aid plebeian men afoot, in an unorganized manner. Thats when the first "forcados" appeared. Then later, Queen Dona Maria II ( 1836 ) completely banned all types of bullfighting, for being an uncivilized behaviour, however with reduced success. It was only in 1928 that, with decree 15355 of the 14th. April, bullfighting that envolved the killing of the bull was criminalized and put to an end. But amazingly (?) four years ago the Portuguese Government decreed an exceptional situation for a little place called Barrancos, near the Spanish border, allowing for the bull killing during their annual festival corrida. Matter of fact, a few villages in the same area keep sacrificing the animal, tricking the eyes of the law.
So after all, there is a certain sense when Marquis de Pombal instructed the execution of Marchioness of Tavora to be decapitated withy either a two handed sword or a bullfighting sword.
And that's all.
fernando

20th December 2006, 09:43 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Eu é que agradeço Hi Philip, As i told you, that was a fantasized illustration, not necessarily good to exemplify the execution instrument used ... just a figure of horizontal stroke. In fact and considering the inumerous narrations on the Tavoras case, there is no precision on this subject. In O CASO DOS TAVORAS by Guilherme de Oliveira Santos in 1958, supported by a bibliography of some two hundred works, the instructions of Marquis de Pombal, the all mighty prime minister, were ( quoting ) "to use a montante ( two handed sword ) or, better, a bullfighting sword, already kept at the Apppeal Judge Oliveira Machado's house". Cutelos ( cutlasses ) and Machados ( axes ) are quoted in other works, basically all with a romantic touch. On the other hand i fail to find a relation between a two handed sword and a bullfighting sword, even considering the period in question, and ignoring that XVIII century bullfighting swords were usable for side strokes and all that, also considering a possible Spanish influence intrument. I am trying hard to find some info about this in the Net, in both Portuguese and Spanish language. As for the execution being achieved with one only stroke, we could basicaly beleive so, as ( also ) witnessed by Saint Julien, French diplomatic representative, also quoted in the same book. Amazingly this part of the execution sword is probably the only one with uncertainty, as the "treatment" given to the other individuals seems to be narrated by all with coinciding details. Besides a tendence from the period to romancize the event, it seems as there wasn't so many witnesses, as all streets going to the scene were blocked by the King's Dragoons, with orders to search everyone's body and stop all those looking suspicious. The sentenced families were very powerfull, actually so much or even more than the King. If ever i find some trusty version of the weapon actually used, i will come back here to tell about it. I know there isn't much material written on Portuguese weaponry, but that is a discussion that "would give lots of cloth for sleeves", as we say here. However i would not be the indicated person to feed that discussion, due to my unsuficient scholar level ... i speak and write english "by ear", to start with. My library is next to unexistant, my school grade is next to none. I just happen to fancy buying old publications, as also old weapons ( i am a very recent collector ). Reason why i have a couple books on the Tavoras process, and some dozen books on Inquisition, a theme i got passionate with, since the day somebody sold me an original tome written by one of the most proheminent Jews in the Portuguese XVIII century, Antonio José da Silva, garroted and burnt by the Inquisition . But in as much as i can be usefull, i will try to help. Kind regards. Fernando

21st December 2006, 01:16 AM	#2
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	bull swords Fernando, Amazing. A bullfighting sword? The only ones I am familiar with are the stiff, narrow, stabbing-only ones used in the Spanish "corrida". How can you cut with something like that? We have Portuguese-style bullfights here in California (the Irmandades do Divino Espirito Santo, founded by Azores immigrants, stage them as part of religious festas), and of course the bulls are not killed but are led out alive after the forcados have their little bit of bruising fun. One man told me that bulls have been left alive in Portugal for well over 300 years. If this is correct, I am surprised that there were such things as bullfighting swords in Portugal.

23rd December 2006, 10:55 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Philip, I have done some little researching. Two things: Firstly, bullfighting swords, in the beginning, were not those "stiff, narrow, stabbing-only ones used in the Spanish corridas" ( I actually have one of those ). Secondly, killing the bull in the arena in Portugal only stopped in the XX century. To start with, long time ago, Iberian nobility went capture the bulls in the country, to bring them in to be fought in enclosures. There are narrations of a certain Portuguese guy, Gonçalves Viegas, having exhibited in bullfighting in the XII century. King Dom Duarte (1433 ) is said to have participated himself in "corridas" . Although with popular adhesion since the beginning, these fights had a strong military cynegetic component, actually achieving a higher expression by the XVI century. In Portugal it was King Dom Sebastião whom gave bullfighting a recreation status , developing public events inside enclosures ( arenas ). In 1578 in Xabregas, the said Dom Sebastião, Dom Jaime de bragança, Dom Cristovão de Tavora ( the sadly famous family ) and Dom Luiz de Menezes all participated in a " corrida". By the time of Spanish occupation of Portugal ( The Filipe Kings, as from 1580 ), an Iberian fashion developed in the two countries; no more knights with heavy swords that destroyed the bull, but elegant cavaliers , with lighter swords. In 1575 Pope Gregorio XIII had derrogated Pope Pio V prohibition of such barbarian scenes, which were causing several accidents. The Portuguese side, allways whilling not to copy their Spanish occupiers, decided to submit to the Pope's bull, starting to cut or covering the bulls horns, this becoming their own version. With the coming of the Bourbons dinasty in Spain, bullfighting became a play for plebeians , the nobles becoming the spectators. It started to be afoot, as populars couldn't aford the horses. However in Portugal kings and nobles continued intervening in bullfighting as principal actors. Only in 1745, by Dom João V realm, horns were nude again, "a la Spaniard", people would call it. Arrivin King Dom Jose to the throne ( 1750 ), nobles and aristrocats kept fighting, but already using some aid plebeian men afoot, in an unorganized manner. Thats when the first "forcados" appeared. Then later, Queen Dona Maria II ( 1836 ) completely banned all types of bullfighting, for being an uncivilized behaviour, however with reduced success. It was only in 1928 that, with decree 15355 of the 14th. April, bullfighting that envolved the killing of the bull was criminalized and put to an end. But amazingly (?) four years ago the Portuguese Government decreed an exceptional situation for a little place called Barrancos, near the Spanish border, allowing for the bull killing during their annual festival corrida. Matter of fact, a few villages in the same area keep sacrificing the animal, tricking the eyes of the law. So after all, there is a certain sense when Marquis de Pombal instructed the execution of Marchioness of Tavora to be decapitated withy either a two handed sword or a bullfighting sword. And that's all. fernando