Arms room Grand Palace Bangkok

Radu Transylvanicus · 5th December 2004, 06:27 PM

Ariel, with the risk of being ,,avocatus diaboli,, that is exactly one of the best reasons why I am not so pro-restitution from Euro-American museums, I had serious conflicts in our own museums debating over ,,wall,, or ,,case,, display or restoration detail and I accused my own execs of carelesness over such but those seem ,,snobish,, minor things when looking at this, in a place of such importance , true national armorial tresure, it enrages me the preservation ignorance of major historical artifacts specially when they have an edge or a barrel... it might even be better for the sake of preservation to go in private collections ...

Since efforts of preservation here looks more like going fishing with dynamite in a coral reef maybe ,,Ocean 13,, wouldnt be a bad idea ? ...

wolviex · 5th December 2004, 06:47 PM

Beautiful exposition, but the condition of the objects is indeed gruesome. I work in Museum, I really do understand financial problems of some museums, where everything, even paper to write a letter (not mention about pencils) you must buy by yourself, becouse of lack of money - but even then there is no chance to display object which is rusty. And here we can see a truly kingdom of rust! UNBELIEVABLE!!! Somebody should made serious intervention there before it's too late!!
It doesn't mean there are no rusty object in my museum - I admit, but they're waiting for conservation in refuge of magazines.

Mark · 5th December 2004, 10:52 PM

Great pictures, Dan. The number of blades there is just amazing.

I, too, am of course appalled at their condition. I imagine climate control in Bangkok is not an easy proposition, however. Still, I image that the royal family has sufficient funds to at least do something. Perhaps we can be the catalyst? Who knows? We just need to push ahead with our research, cultivate the contacts you have made, and show them that we are sincere. Hopefully there will be a chnage in attitude.

Andrew · 6th December 2004, 02:02 AM

Wow.

Dan, thank you so much for sharing this with us. I'm blown away by the number of swords there. The condition doesn't excite me, but those photos certainly do.

With nearly every post you make, I'm more and more grateful for your work, and simultaneously frustrated by my personal lack of time.

You rock!

Best,
Andrew

VANDOO · 6th December 2004, 05:10 AM

IT IS TRULY SAD TO SEE SUCH A LARGE AND IMPORTANT COLLECTION IN SUCH POOR CONDITION. THE WAY FOR THEM TO GO WITH THEIR MUSEUM IS TO FIND A PROFESSIONAL CONSERVATOR AND HAVE HIM OR HIS TEAM WORK ON THE MOST IMPORTANT EXAMPLES AND ALSO TEACH SOME OF THE LOCALS HOW TO RESTORE, PRESERVE AND CARE FOR THE COLLECTION. AS LABOR IS CHEAP IN THAILAND THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO HIRE A CREW OF THOSE TRAINED TO GET ALL THEIR SWORDS IN ACCEPTABLE CONDITION. AFTER EVERYTHING IS IN STABLE AND CLEAN CONDITION A SMALLER CREW COULD KEEP THE COLLECTION IN GOOD SHAPE. THE OTHERS MIGHT FIND WORK IN OTHER MUSEUMS IN THE SAME SHAPE AS THIS ONE PRESENTLY IS.

CONSERVATORS ARE EXPENSIVE HERE AND THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH MONEY AVAILABLE TO DO ALL THE THINGS THAT NEED TO BE DONE SO MOST THINGS HAVE TO BE PUT OFF. WHAT GETS TAKEN CARE OF ALSO DEPENDS ON THE INTRESTS OF THE CURRENT HEAD CURATOR. THE MUSEUM IN THAILAND APPEARS TO BE OF THE OLD STYLE ( JUST GET A LOT OF STUFF AND DISPLAY IT AND THEN LET IT STAY THAT WAY FOREVER WITH NO CONSERVATION). THAILAND IS A BEAUTIFUL COUNTRY AND I LIKE THE PEOPLE AND THEIR WAY OF LIFE SO IT IS A SHAME TO SEE SUCH A IMPORTANT ESTABLISHMENT AS THIS MUSEUM SO SADLY NEGLECTED.
THE PICTURES DO SERVE TO SEE MORE EXAMPLES OF DHA AND THE INFORMATION ABOUT THE OTHER WEAPONS THERE IS GOOD. YOU HAVE ADDED MORE TO THE POOL OF KNOWLEGE HERE AND PERHAPS WORD MAY GET BACK TO THE MUSEUM OR SOMEONE WITH DEEP POCKETS AND DHA FEVER MAY HELP THE MUSEUM OUT OR STIR THEM UP TO FIX IT. WAY TO GO!!

Rather · 6th December 2004, 08:09 AM

I do agree with former comments, great collection, but in extremely poor condition. In my opinion it is not a matter of funds, it is a matter of general approach to the displayed items. I am not talking about a professional restoration, but about pure and simple conservation. Why are so many old Japanese blades still in tremendous condition, while European swords of the same age are mostly found in much poorer shape and we accept spots of rust on them as normal. The Samurai sword was always and is still esteemed, but for generations nobody cared about the old swords here. So, it is important that the persons responsible for the collection realise the immense historical value and don’t treat the displayed items just as curiosities.
This in not a problem you will find only in Thailand. I remember that till a few years ago the municipal museum of Moelln, a small town near Hamburg, still displayed 400 years old execution swords the same way. Or the Museum for Islamic Art in Kairo, they had problems with a display of copper coins, so they just used a few drops of all purpose glue to fix them…...

wilked aka Khun Deng · 6th December 2004, 02:06 PM

Let me see if I can address your questions and comments. To clear up any confusion this is the Grand Palace Arms Room. They have a seperate museum that holds all royal weapons (climate controlled - beautifully displayed in modern exhibit cases) jewelry, coinage, awards, costumes, etc.
And this is not the National Museum or part of the National Museum system who's weapons could also use some work, though their branch in Lop Buri was well taken care of and instituting continual improvements. There are really two seperate entities at work here, an individual with a title a mile long that is in charge of all royal possesions and the government in charge of the museums. Neither consider these weapons of historical importance, that is reserved for royal weapons which even in the National museum are in another section in very nice exhibit cases.
I hope this next doesn't sound too defensive (I have been accused of being part Thai before) but the royal family has funneled most of its resources into infrastructure projects for the past 60 years and projects that would allow income growth to its subjects while the civilian government fought for power. All over the country you see trade associations, Fina Arts associations, reserviors, road projects all with little signs underneath that say "under the patronage of HRH ....) I know NO politics on the forum, but it should be mentioned that HRH Princess Sirindhron is a world renown scholar and has been the driving force behind most of the projects to capture and collate Thai history, so I can't fault them for this minor shortfall in the overall scheem of things.

JT, The Grand Palace does not have a catalogue. the National Museum (again seperate from the palace) doesn't either. The National Museum in conjjunction with the Fine Arts dept. has published a book called "Heritage of Thai Culture". I was lucky enough to find a single copy in English at the Lop Buri museum and I have made copies of the weapons section I can send you and anyone else that would like one. At the National Museum, after our request for photos and provenance on their swords, the curator Mrs. Jarunee took the initiative to start building a data base with photos and provenance. Mike Ngyuen, who has been an enormous help, is mailing her initial product to me today. I still have to figure out the data base and then translate the provenance.

Ian, I didn't get anywhere on contacts at the palace. They wanted a request in Thai to pass up to the keeper of the royal possesions just to get an appointment to give our brief and Mrs Nattapat basically told me not to hold my breath. I will however pass on your restoration inquery to Mrs Jarunee at the National museum when I send off our thank you letter.

Adni, I also noted those knives under the badeks but was unfamiliar with them. They had a yataghan type handle was all I could tell. While I'm not up on keris, the mix of styles was evident even to me. I assumed this was due to ignorance as many didn't have handles and some looked like they didn't quite fit their sheaths. As for tajong I didn't note any at the palace but the museum had some, sorry no pictures, this was a dha/darb project.

Mike has posted the first gallery from the National museum look for the post.

Thanks all for your kind words.

Khun Deng

5th December 2004, 06:27 PM	#1
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Ariel, with the risk of being ,,avocatus diaboli,, that is exactly one of the best reasons why I am not so pro-restitution from Euro-American museums, I had serious conflicts in our own museums debating over ,,wall,, or ,,case,, display or restoration detail and I accused my own execs of carelesness over such but those seem ,,snobish,, minor things when looking at this, in a place of such importance , true national armorial tresure, it enrages me the preservation ignorance of major historical artifacts specially when they have an edge or a barrel... it might even be better for the sake of preservation to go in private collections ... Since efforts of preservation here looks more like going fishing with dynamite in a coral reef maybe ,,Ocean 13,, wouldnt be a bad idea ? ... Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 5th December 2004 at 06:39 PM.

5th December 2004, 06:47 PM	#2
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Kingdom of rust Beautiful exposition, but the condition of the objects is indeed gruesome. I work in Museum, I really do understand financial problems of some museums, where everything, even paper to write a letter (not mention about pencils) you must buy by yourself, becouse of lack of money - but even then there is no chance to display object which is rusty. And here we can see a truly kingdom of rust! UNBELIEVABLE!!! Somebody should made serious intervention there before it's too late!! It doesn't mean there are no rusty object in my museum - I admit, but they're waiting for conservation in refuge of magazines.

6th December 2004, 02:06 PM	#7
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Answers Let me see if I can address your questions and comments. To clear up any confusion this is the Grand Palace Arms Room. They have a seperate museum that holds all royal weapons (climate controlled - beautifully displayed in modern exhibit cases) jewelry, coinage, awards, costumes, etc. And this is not the National Museum or part of the National Museum system who's weapons could also use some work, though their branch in Lop Buri was well taken care of and instituting continual improvements. There are really two seperate entities at work here, an individual with a title a mile long that is in charge of all royal possesions and the government in charge of the museums. Neither consider these weapons of historical importance, that is reserved for royal weapons which even in the National museum are in another section in very nice exhibit cases. I hope this next doesn't sound too defensive (I have been accused of being part Thai before) but the royal family has funneled most of its resources into infrastructure projects for the past 60 years and projects that would allow income growth to its subjects while the civilian government fought for power. All over the country you see trade associations, Fina Arts associations, reserviors, road projects all with little signs underneath that say "under the patronage of HRH ....) I know NO politics on the forum, but it should be mentioned that HRH Princess Sirindhron is a world renown scholar and has been the driving force behind most of the projects to capture and collate Thai history, so I can't fault them for this minor shortfall in the overall scheem of things. JT, The Grand Palace does not have a catalogue. the National Museum (again seperate from the palace) doesn't either. The National Museum in conjjunction with the Fine Arts dept. has published a book called "Heritage of Thai Culture". I was lucky enough to find a single copy in English at the Lop Buri museum and I have made copies of the weapons section I can send you and anyone else that would like one. At the National Museum, after our request for photos and provenance on their swords, the curator Mrs. Jarunee took the initiative to start building a data base with photos and provenance. Mike Ngyuen, who has been an enormous help, is mailing her initial product to me today. I still have to figure out the data base and then translate the provenance. Ian, I didn't get anywhere on contacts at the palace. They wanted a request in Thai to pass up to the keeper of the royal possesions just to get an appointment to give our brief and Mrs Nattapat basically told me not to hold my breath. I will however pass on your restoration inquery to Mrs Jarunee at the National museum when I send off our thank you letter. Adni, I also noted those knives under the badeks but was unfamiliar with them. They had a yataghan type handle was all I could tell. While I'm not up on keris, the mix of styles was evident even to me. I assumed this was due to ignorance as many didn't have handles and some looked like they didn't quite fit their sheaths. As for tajong I didn't note any at the palace but the museum had some, sorry no pictures, this was a dha/darb project. Mike has posted the first gallery from the National museum look for the post. Thanks all for your kind words. Khun Deng

5th December 2004, 10:52 PM	#3
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Great pictures, Dan. The number of blades there is just amazing. I, too, am of course appalled at their condition. I imagine climate control in Bangkok is not an easy proposition, however. Still, I image that the royal family has sufficient funds to at least do something. Perhaps we can be the catalyst? Who knows? We just need to push ahead with our research, cultivate the contacts you have made, and show them that we are sincere. Hopefully there will be a chnage in attitude.

6th December 2004, 02:02 AM	#4
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Wow. Dan, thank you so much for sharing this with us. I'm blown away by the number of swords there. The condition doesn't excite me, but those photos certainly do. With nearly every post you make, I'm more and more grateful for your work, and simultaneously frustrated by my personal lack of time. You rock! Best, Andrew

6th December 2004, 05:10 AM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IT IS TRULY SAD TO SEE SUCH A LARGE AND IMPORTANT COLLECTION IN SUCH POOR CONDITION. THE WAY FOR THEM TO GO WITH THEIR MUSEUM IS TO FIND A PROFESSIONAL CONSERVATOR AND HAVE HIM OR HIS TEAM WORK ON THE MOST IMPORTANT EXAMPLES AND ALSO TEACH SOME OF THE LOCALS HOW TO RESTORE, PRESERVE AND CARE FOR THE COLLECTION. AS LABOR IS CHEAP IN THAILAND THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO HIRE A CREW OF THOSE TRAINED TO GET ALL THEIR SWORDS IN ACCEPTABLE CONDITION. AFTER EVERYTHING IS IN STABLE AND CLEAN CONDITION A SMALLER CREW COULD KEEP THE COLLECTION IN GOOD SHAPE. THE OTHERS MIGHT FIND WORK IN OTHER MUSEUMS IN THE SAME SHAPE AS THIS ONE PRESENTLY IS. CONSERVATORS ARE EXPENSIVE HERE AND THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH MONEY AVAILABLE TO DO ALL THE THINGS THAT NEED TO BE DONE SO MOST THINGS HAVE TO BE PUT OFF. WHAT GETS TAKEN CARE OF ALSO DEPENDS ON THE INTRESTS OF THE CURRENT HEAD CURATOR. THE MUSEUM IN THAILAND APPEARS TO BE OF THE OLD STYLE ( JUST GET A LOT OF STUFF AND DISPLAY IT AND THEN LET IT STAY THAT WAY FOREVER WITH NO CONSERVATION). THAILAND IS A BEAUTIFUL COUNTRY AND I LIKE THE PEOPLE AND THEIR WAY OF LIFE SO IT IS A SHAME TO SEE SUCH A IMPORTANT ESTABLISHMENT AS THIS MUSEUM SO SADLY NEGLECTED. THE PICTURES DO SERVE TO SEE MORE EXAMPLES OF DHA AND THE INFORMATION ABOUT THE OTHER WEAPONS THERE IS GOOD. YOU HAVE ADDED MORE TO THE POOL OF KNOWLEGE HERE AND PERHAPS WORD MAY GET BACK TO THE MUSEUM OR SOMEONE WITH DEEP POCKETS AND DHA FEVER MAY HELP THE MUSEUM OUT OR STIR THEM UP TO FIX IT. WAY TO GO!!

6th December 2004, 08:09 AM	#6
Rather Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Hamburg, Germany Posts: 72	I do agree with former comments, great collection, but in extremely poor condition. In my opinion it is not a matter of funds, it is a matter of general approach to the displayed items. I am not talking about a professional restoration, but about pure and simple conservation. Why are so many old Japanese blades still in tremendous condition, while European swords of the same age are mostly found in much poorer shape and we accept spots of rust on them as normal. The Samurai sword was always and is still esteemed, but for generations nobody cared about the old swords here. So, it is important that the persons responsible for the collection realise the immense historical value and don’t treat the displayed items just as curiosities. This in not a problem you will find only in Thailand. I remember that till a few years ago the municipal museum of Moelln, a small town near Hamburg, still displayed 400 years old execution swords the same way. Or the Museum for Islamic Art in Kairo, they had problems with a display of copper coins, so they just used a few drops of all purpose glue to fix them…...