wootz blade welded back together

Jens Nordlunde · 17th December 2006, 06:12 PM

Hi Rick,

This is very nicely done, although as mentioned earlier, the strength could not have been the same. Thanks for showing

.

tom hyle · 18th December 2006, 09:31 PM

First, I am very curious as to any traditional welding procedure that would not lose material from the blade; a forge-welded blade would need to be entirely resurfaced. Second, any modern method I'm familiar with would tend to require a full retempering (with ordinary steel; bulat is more delicate in this regard; yes?), so I'm curious about this whole subject. Interesting that if such midpoint welds are very rare, it seems strange that such appear A/ on other types/nationalities of swords (ie. the Confederate hanger), and B/ on my brother's only tulwar, by odd coincidence (it's a bulat one, too). I don't think it is at all usual or maybe possible to carry out any sort of traditional "true" (ie non-solder) weld with a hilt in place, BTW; this seems an unrealistic conception that is repeatedly encountered.
As to scarf welds attaching tang to blade at forte, they are by no means at all unusual, nor a mark of low quality (though such is often misattributed out of an industrial respect for homogeneity); nor is it seen only on "Eastern" blades, but in Europe as well. Commonly (by members of industrial societies with certains prejudices concerning preindutrial/nonindustrial production) attributed as an economy, this was probably done to increase strength on a hard-part/soft-part theory/conception. I'm not sure either that it would follow that using two pieces of wootz/bulat was a matter of economics (it seems the stuff traded by weight; yes?), but of, perhaps, simple availability. Still there seems no positive indication of repair as opposed to original production weld, IMHO.

Tim Simmons · 18th December 2006, 09:38 PM

That is a good point Tom perhaps hinting at a parade or show weapon.

Gt Obach · 20th December 2006, 04:36 PM

nice blade...

if you think about it.... what are pattern welded swords. ? they are a large sandwich/series of welds... and they are not concidered to be a sub standard..... so a single weld, if done right.... would be very good and hold up to much stress !

in this case....wootz welds at a low temp ( due to its high carbon level) ... if over heated, you may lose more pattern .... but this weld was done nicely.....

after welding the blade should be normalized a couple time to reduce grain size..... and return its toughness..... small grain is tough... large grain can be very problematic

i'm not sure how this weld was done.... but i would suppose it is a lap weld... as you need extra material in the weld area.... so you can forge the sword back to shape with a similar cross section...

just my opinion
Greg

Philip · 21st December 2006, 01:47 AM

Greg
You're spot on in your comments about what would ensure a sound weld on a piece such as this.

I'm also amazed at the ability of the smith who did this weld joint, he certainly knew how to control his temperature. There are enough wootz blades out there whose blades are intact and in one single piece from forte to tip, which nonetheless show melding of the carbide networks (resulting in patches of gray) in areas due to overheating.

I polished the blade that's shown in this post. The joint is lapped a little ways. When it was sent to me by its owner for repair, I could see a patch of cross-hatching and remains of a clumsily-executed gold onlay inscription panel (reading "Iran" on a sword of typically north Indian workmanship). Though not apparent at the time, this decoration was put right over the weld joint. (an odd place for an inscription cartouche, on Indian and Persian blades they are almost always at the forte, about 4-6 in. ahead of guard) The sword's owner, realizing that the gold work was not original to the blade (it didn't match the rest of the decor in terms of quality and age), requested that it be polished over, and that's when the weld joint was discovered.

Gt Obach · 21st December 2006, 04:15 AM

good call... I would have done the same and polished out the cartouche... -
the weld line tells a story ... with a sharply beveled scarf on both sides.. this is abit harder weld to make... i'm positive that there was more than one smith working on this... one smith pull the tip out and places the bottom scarf on the anvil and the master would pull the hilt piece out and line up the weld and set it.. (you have such a very short time to line up the weld.... I try to get things lined up and set in under 3 sec). then both would work the weld in time...... tap ...Bang.. tap .... Bang... etc
-- experience and talent to weld it that nicely

yesterday i forgewelded a pair of broken wrought iron tongs...the handle had snapped.. much different material ... but still it gets interesting when your trying to get two parts of the handle to line up ....when they are at a white welding heat... then grab a hammer to set it...

if i were to guess... wootz would probably weld at a brite orange to very low yellow heat..... not sure what you'd use for flux... borax gets nice and bubbly at a brite yellow heat ( the weld temp for lotsa tool steels and too high for wootz)...
-- hmm... wonder what they used for flux ?

Greg

Philip · 21st December 2006, 06:39 AM

Greg,
What a pleasure to hear from someone on this thread with hands-on experience in actually making blades! Having done only basic blade forging myself (my focus is on polishing), I can't comment on the type of flux that smiths used in working in wootz. There are two occasional contributors to this forum who are well-versed in these crystalline damascus steels, Ann Feuerbach and Ric Furrer. Ann, as you might know from previous threads, has done extensive field research into wootz manufacture from the historical standpoint, and Ric is one of the few smiths who are actually making their own wootz, and doing it damn well. I hope that either of these experts will notice your comment and chime in here.

Borax (initially brought from Europe) came into widespread use in the Far East from the 18th cent. onwards, although the cultures in this area did pattern-weld, not wootz. Prior to that, rice straw ash was commonly used. This info was passed along to me by Francis Boyd, an accomplished smith working in Berkeley, CA. Perhaps you guys are acquainted?

17th December 2006, 06:12 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Rick, This is very nicely done, although as mentioned earlier, the strength could not have been the same. Thanks for showing.

21st December 2006, 06:39 AM	#7
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	flux Greg, What a pleasure to hear from someone on this thread with hands-on experience in actually making blades! Having done only basic blade forging myself (my focus is on polishing), I can't comment on the type of flux that smiths used in working in wootz. There are two occasional contributors to this forum who are well-versed in these crystalline damascus steels, Ann Feuerbach and Ric Furrer. Ann, as you might know from previous threads, has done extensive field research into wootz manufacture from the historical standpoint, and Ric is one of the few smiths who are actually making their own wootz, and doing it damn well. I hope that either of these experts will notice your comment and chime in here. Borax (initially brought from Europe) came into widespread use in the Far East from the 18th cent. onwards, although the cultures in this area did pattern-weld, not wootz. Prior to that, rice straw ash was commonly used. This info was passed along to me by Francis Boyd, an accomplished smith working in Berkeley, CA. Perhaps you guys are acquainted?

18th December 2006, 09:31 PM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	First, I am very curious as to any traditional welding procedure that would not lose material from the blade; a forge-welded blade would need to be entirely resurfaced. Second, any modern method I'm familiar with would tend to require a full retempering (with ordinary steel; bulat is more delicate in this regard; yes?), so I'm curious about this whole subject. Interesting that if such midpoint welds are very rare, it seems strange that such appear A/ on other types/nationalities of swords (ie. the Confederate hanger), and B/ on my brother's only tulwar, by odd coincidence (it's a bulat one, too). I don't think it is at all usual or maybe possible to carry out any sort of traditional "true" (ie non-solder) weld with a hilt in place, BTW; this seems an unrealistic conception that is repeatedly encountered. As to scarf welds attaching tang to blade at forte, they are by no means at all unusual, nor a mark of low quality (though such is often misattributed out of an industrial respect for homogeneity); nor is it seen only on "Eastern" blades, but in Europe as well. Commonly (by members of industrial societies with certains prejudices concerning preindutrial/nonindustrial production) attributed as an economy, this was probably done to increase strength on a hard-part/soft-part theory/conception. I'm not sure either that it would follow that using two pieces of wootz/bulat was a matter of economics (it seems the stuff traded by weight; yes?), but of, perhaps, simple availability. Still there seems no positive indication of repair as opposed to original production weld, IMHO.

18th December 2006, 09:38 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	That is a good point Tom perhaps hinting at a parade or show weapon.

20th December 2006, 04:36 PM	#4
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	nice blade... if you think about it.... what are pattern welded swords. ? they are a large sandwich/series of welds... and they are not concidered to be a sub standard..... so a single weld, if done right.... would be very good and hold up to much stress ! in this case....wootz welds at a low temp ( due to its high carbon level) ... if over heated, you may lose more pattern .... but this weld was done nicely..... after welding the blade should be normalized a couple time to reduce grain size..... and return its toughness..... small grain is tough... large grain can be very problematic i'm not sure how this weld was done.... but i would suppose it is a lap weld... as you need extra material in the weld area.... so you can forge the sword back to shape with a similar cross section... just my opinion Greg

21st December 2006, 01:47 AM	#5
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Greg You're spot on in your comments about what would ensure a sound weld on a piece such as this. I'm also amazed at the ability of the smith who did this weld joint, he certainly knew how to control his temperature. There are enough wootz blades out there whose blades are intact and in one single piece from forte to tip, which nonetheless show melding of the carbide networks (resulting in patches of gray) in areas due to overheating. I polished the blade that's shown in this post. The joint is lapped a little ways. When it was sent to me by its owner for repair, I could see a patch of cross-hatching and remains of a clumsily-executed gold onlay inscription panel (reading "Iran" on a sword of typically north Indian workmanship). Though not apparent at the time, this decoration was put right over the weld joint. (an odd place for an inscription cartouche, on Indian and Persian blades they are almost always at the forte, about 4-6 in. ahead of guard) The sword's owner, realizing that the gold work was not original to the blade (it didn't match the rest of the decor in terms of quality and age), requested that it be polished over, and that's when the weld joint was discovered.

21st December 2006, 04:15 AM	#6
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	good call... I would have done the same and polished out the cartouche... - the weld line tells a story ... with a sharply beveled scarf on both sides.. this is abit harder weld to make... i'm positive that there was more than one smith working on this... one smith pull the tip out and places the bottom scarf on the anvil and the master would pull the hilt piece out and line up the weld and set it.. (you have such a very short time to line up the weld.... I try to get things lined up and set in under 3 sec). then both would work the weld in time...... tap ...Bang.. tap .... Bang... etc -- experience and talent to weld it that nicely yesterday i forgewelded a pair of broken wrought iron tongs...the handle had snapped.. much different material ... but still it gets interesting when your trying to get two parts of the handle to line up ....when they are at a white welding heat... then grab a hammer to set it... if i were to guess... wootz would probably weld at a brite orange to very low yellow heat..... not sure what you'd use for flux... borax gets nice and bubbly at a brite yellow heat ( the weld temp for lotsa tool steels and too high for wootz)... -- hmm... wonder what they used for flux ? Greg