European Executioner Sword

S.Al-Anizi · 15th December 2006, 11:48 AM

Just a note to Philip, in Arabia, executioners perform vertical, not horizontal cut. The victim would be sitting on his knees, the headsman would jab him in the back with the tip of his saif, then off goes his head.

Philip · 15th December 2006, 09:30 PM

Thanks for the clarification. I thought it was horizontal, as explained once on an American TV documentary, and also per an artist's sketch that accompanied a newspaper article. Well, I guess those folks got it wrong, and I appreciate your correction.

fernando · 16th December 2006, 02:37 PM

In the most dramatic execution event of modern era in Portugal ( XVIII century ), some ten individuals belonging to three different noble houses, supposedly opposing the King, were publicly sacrificed at the scaffold, all in the same session, each of them in a different indescribable manner. The only one who was sentenced with a "simple" process, was the Marchioness of Tavora, the first one to be executed, as to save her from the scene of the others being meticulously tortured to death.
All sources mention that she was sitting on a bench. Some even say she was tyed to it by her waist, hands cuffed, head standing up. The beheading stroke was horizontal, given by the back. One only stroke, according to witnesses. There is some undefinition about the instrument. Some say with a cutlass, but the instructions were to use a great sword or a bullfighting sword (?), previously stored for the purpose.
fernando

fenlander · 16th December 2006, 04:52 PM

Being a lay man i was never quite sure what you meant by a horizontal be-heading. This is because i had always presumed that the victim would bow their head. I take it that you mean by this, that the victim was standing with the neck vertically when the sentence was carried out ? I had to think about what was meant by a "horizontal be-heading" for quite a while. In the TV series "Henry the VIII" I thought that Anne Bolien had her head down when it was time.
Can't believe you experts got me thinking for so long about what a horizontal executioners stroke was !

p.s.
i've never worked out if there is a spell checker on this forum. Does it exist ?

fernando · 16th December 2006, 08:57 PM

I bet this picture is more accurate than my english.
fernando

Philip · 17th December 2006, 07:43 AM

Fernando,
Thanks for the info and the illustration, which is appropriate regarding Fenlander's question.

The incident which you describe is the same one shown in color in a huge illustrated tome, "Historia de Portugal", probably dating from the 1930s, in the library of a friend of mine. Marvellous book, covering Roman Lusitania until the 1910 Revolution, lavishly illustrated with engravings, photos, and color lithos throughout. The picture as I remember it showed the execution of the nobles other than the unfortunate Marchioness -- one large scaffold with the victims tied to horizontally-mounted wagon-wheels, and made to suffer a variety of unpleasant fates.

It wasn't made clear in that book, but do you happen to know when was the last auto-da-fe in Portuguese history? I recall reading that the Inquisition was not formally abolished until the second decade of the 19th century, but didn't the trials and executions cease quite some time before that? Correct me if I mis-remembered the time of the abolition.

fernando · 17th December 2006, 04:15 PM

Hi Philip
The illustration with the Marchioness of Tavora being decapitated was just to support the idea of horizontal beheading, as it comes with a romanticized version written by the famous Portuguese writer Camilo Castelo Branco.
No doubt that the version with all the nobles ( and some servants ) being executed at the scaffold was more publicized ... some were laid on the wheels, others against St. Andrews crosses ( Aspas ) ... some with their bone canes mace crushed before being killed, some after being killed, depending from the sentence instructions ... others were burnt alife. Also the wheels were connected to ropes disguised under the scaffold, so that they would be strangled ( garroted ) with the wheel turning. The Marchioness was the first to be conducted there, and taken for a round on the scaffold, to both be seen by the public and to be made familiar to all these processes, described to her by the hangmen, before she was executed.
This event took place in 1759, and was a Secular ( civilian ) process, not an Inquisition ( religious ) exercize.
Eventually the processes used in torture by Seculars and Religiouses were distinct, each having their own "specialities".
You are right, Autos de Fé in Portugal started on 1536 and ended on 1821; however the last one with life sentence took place in 1761, when they burnt alife a Jesuit priest, named Malagrida, whom had actually been envolved with the Tavoras, in the famous conspiracy process a few years before, against the King Dom José.
fernando

ariel · 24th December 2006, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.Al-Anizi

Just a note to Philip, in Arabia, executioners perform vertical, not horizontal cut. The victim would be sitting on his knees, the headsman would jab him in the back with the tip of his saif, then off goes his head.

Then, why does the professional Saudi Arabian executioner describes horizontal cuts?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3709

fenlander · 24th December 2006, 11:42 AM

Phillip is correct i think. As I also heard that the executioner in Saudi Arabia uses vertical cuts not horizontal. The prisoner is asked to kneel and bow their heads. Then the stroke is vertical not horizontal. One source backs that claim up, and I think Amnesty international would b reliable in these matters.
http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/...riefing/8.html

S.Al-Anizi · 24th December 2006, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Then, why does the professional Saudi Arabian executioner describes horizontal cuts?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3709

I really do not know what the executioner means by using horizontal cuts, and for what, but Ive talked to people who have witnessed executions in Riyadh, and from many photos you can find on the internet, clearly, vertical, not horizontal cuts, are used.

Philip · 25th December 2006, 03:26 AM

I appreciate again your vast historical knowledge, here in the States we cannot get many books on Portugurse history so we are at a disadvantage. The info you provide indicates that the fellow at the I.D.E.S. who told me about the non-killing of bulls in Portugal may have had some dates and facts wrong. outra vez, obrigado!

I don't want to discuss the tourada/corrida further on this thread because taurine sport is off topic in this context, but if you have pics of the old Portuguese bullfighting sword, could you START A NEW THREAD to share this little-known info with us all? Maybe you can post a pic of your Spanish style "estoc" side by side for comparison purposes.

Joe · 25th December 2006, 11:43 AM

Depiction of an execution about to be performed, using a horizontal cut?

fernando · 25th December 2006, 10:51 PM

Hi Philip,
I do not have that much historical knowledge ... only a couple days browsing the Net, looking for some Portuguese material, besides a couple books and a couple notions.
I too don't want to feed any discussion in bullfighting as a topic ... this was all about swords and swording.
I once posted my Spanish estoque in this Forum, but the discussion diverted from the virtual idea.
If you wish, i can e-mail pictures to you, with some supporting info.
Kind regards
fernando

fenlander · 26th December 2006, 11:43 AM

Joe do you know aything more about the picture you posted. Where is it from i.e. which country ? Who are they etc ?

15th December 2006, 09:30 PM	#2
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Arabia Thanks for the clarification. I thought it was horizontal, as explained once on an American TV documentary, and also per an artist's sketch that accompanied a newspaper article. Well, I guess those folks got it wrong, and I appreciate your correction.

16th December 2006, 02:37 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	In the most dramatic execution event of modern era in Portugal ( XVIII century ), some ten individuals belonging to three different noble houses, supposedly opposing the King, were publicly sacrificed at the scaffold, all in the same session, each of them in a different indescribable manner. The only one who was sentenced with a "simple" process, was the Marchioness of Tavora, the first one to be executed, as to save her from the scene of the others being meticulously tortured to death. All sources mention that she was sitting on a bench. Some even say she was tyed to it by her waist, hands cuffed, head standing up. The beheading stroke was horizontal, given by the back. One only stroke, according to witnesses. There is some undefinition about the instrument. Some say with a cutlass, but the instructions were to use a great sword or a bullfighting sword (?), previously stored for the purpose. fernando Last edited by fernando; 16th December 2006 at 09:08 PM.

16th December 2006, 04:52 PM	#4
fenlander Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 62	wow i never realised ! Being a lay man i was never quite sure what you meant by a horizontal be-heading. This is because i had always presumed that the victim would bow their head. I take it that you mean by this, that the victim was standing with the neck vertically when the sentence was carried out ? I had to think about what was meant by a "horizontal be-heading" for quite a while. In the TV series "Henry the VIII" I thought that Anne Bolien had her head down when it was time. Can't believe you experts got me thinking for so long about what a horizontal executioners stroke was ! p.s. i've never worked out if there is a spell checker on this forum. Does it exist ?

16th December 2006, 08:57 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I bet this picture is more accurate than my english. fernando Attached Images

17th December 2006, 07:43 AM	#6
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	a picture worth a thousand words... Fernando, Thanks for the info and the illustration, which is appropriate regarding Fenlander's question. The incident which you describe is the same one shown in color in a huge illustrated tome, "Historia de Portugal", probably dating from the 1930s, in the library of a friend of mine. Marvellous book, covering Roman Lusitania until the 1910 Revolution, lavishly illustrated with engravings, photos, and color lithos throughout. The picture as I remember it showed the execution of the nobles other than the unfortunate Marchioness -- one large scaffold with the victims tied to horizontally-mounted wagon-wheels, and made to suffer a variety of unpleasant fates. It wasn't made clear in that book, but do you happen to know when was the last auto-da-fe in Portuguese history? I recall reading that the Inquisition was not formally abolished until the second decade of the 19th century, but didn't the trials and executions cease quite some time before that? Correct me if I mis-remembered the time of the abolition.

15th December 2006, 11:48 AM	#1
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Just a note to Philip, in Arabia, executioners perform vertical, not horizontal cut. The victim would be sitting on his knees, the headsman would jab him in the back with the tip of his saif, then off goes his head.

17th December 2006, 04:15 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Philip The illustration with the Marchioness of Tavora being decapitated was just to support the idea of horizontal beheading, as it comes with a romanticized version written by the famous Portuguese writer Camilo Castelo Branco. No doubt that the version with all the nobles ( and some servants ) being executed at the scaffold was more publicized ... some were laid on the wheels, others against St. Andrews crosses ( Aspas ) ... some with their bone canes mace crushed before being killed, some after being killed, depending from the sentence instructions ... others were burnt alife. Also the wheels were connected to ropes disguised under the scaffold, so that they would be strangled ( garroted ) with the wheel turning. The Marchioness was the first to be conducted there, and taken for a round on the scaffold, to both be seen by the public and to be made familiar to all these processes, described to her by the hangmen, before she was executed. This event took place in 1759, and was a Secular ( civilian ) process, not an Inquisition ( religious ) exercize. Eventually the processes used in torture by Seculars and Religiouses were distinct, each having their own "specialities". You are right, Autos de Fé in Portugal started on 1536 and ended on 1821; however the last one with life sentence took place in 1761, when they burnt alife a Jesuit priest, named Malagrida, whom had actually been envolved with the Tavoras, in the famous conspiracy process a few years before, against the King Dom José. fernando

24th December 2006, 11:42 AM	#9
fenlander Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 62	vertical cuts Phillip is correct i think. As I also heard that the executioner in Saudi Arabia uses vertical cuts not horizontal. The prisoner is asked to kneel and bow their heads. Then the stroke is vertical not horizontal. One source backs that claim up, and I think Amnesty international would b reliable in these matters. http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/...riefing/8.html

25th December 2006, 03:26 AM	#11
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Thanks, Fernando! I appreciate again your vast historical knowledge, here in the States we cannot get many books on Portugurse history so we are at a disadvantage. The info you provide indicates that the fellow at the I.D.E.S. who told me about the non-killing of bulls in Portugal may have had some dates and facts wrong. outra vez, obrigado! I don't want to discuss the tourada/corrida further on this thread because taurine sport is off topic in this context, but if you have pics of the old Portuguese bullfighting sword, could you START A NEW THREAD to share this little-known info with us all? Maybe you can post a pic of your Spanish style "estoc" side by side for comparison purposes.

25th December 2006, 11:43 AM	#12
Joe Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: McDonough, GA Posts: 48	Depiction of an execution about to be performed, using a horizontal cut? Attached Images

25th December 2006, 10:51 PM	#13
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Philip, I do not have that much historical knowledge ... only a couple days browsing the Net, looking for some Portuguese material, besides a couple books and a couple notions. I too don't want to feed any discussion in bullfighting as a topic ... this was all about swords and swording. I once posted my Spanish estoque in this Forum, but the discussion diverted from the virtual idea. If you wish, i can e-mail pictures to you, with some supporting info. Kind regards fernando

26th December 2006, 11:43 AM	#14
fenlander Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 62	Joe Joe do you know aything more about the picture you posted. Where is it from i.e. which country ? Who are they etc ?