European Executioner Sword

Philip · 13th December 2006, 07:14 AM

I recall reading that in olden times, the executioner's trade was learned via an apprenticeship system. In many instances (particularly in France and even to this day in Saudi Arabia) the post was/is hereditary. Many generations of the Sanson family served the Bourbon kings, and on down through various restorations and republics, well into the 20th century.

Being accurate and clean with a headsman's sword involves similar discipline and concentration required for effective cutting with combat swords as well. A friend and colleague is a taiji instructor who teaches sword and regularly practices cutting with jian. He tells me that the perpendicular cuts on the rolled-up mats are more demanding than oblique cuts. (if you tried cuts from various angles with a sharp machete while trimming tree limbs in your garden, you'll see what he means).

The reason that swords and sabers can cut so effectively even though they are much lighter than axes is that their blades have much longer edges. It's the combination of percussive force AND the "slicing" motion imparted by the action of his arm that enables a swordsman to make a deep and devastating cut. A short chopping motion with a sword can be useful for that quick "nip" to disable an opponent's sword-arm or hit some vulnerable area, but is otherwise of limited effectiveness. Axes do well for chopping because of the weight of the head combined with the leverage of the handle. If you read Polish, a good book that explains saber design and the biomechanics of cutting is Wojciech Zablocki's CIECA PRAWDZIWA SZABLA (a true cut with a saber), Warsaw: Wydawnictwo Sport i Turystyka 1988.

Henk · 13th December 2006, 06:44 PM

Emanuel,

Handling a sword in a museum here in Holland is unthinkable, so the answer is no.

Philip made a good point that the dutch sword I saw is similar to the germanic sword. And that doesn't surprise me at all. probably it wil be similar to any european execution sword. it wouldn't be a surprise if the dutch swords where from german or french origin or the other way

Such a dutch or germanic execution sword is flat and doesn't tapper towards the end. A sharp pointed tip wasn't necesarry either. The only purpose for the sword was a blow with the edge to seperate the head from the body. So the only functional part of such a sword was a sharp edge. We all know the drawings of the european executions where the victim kneelded with his head on a chopping-block. No need for a tappering combat sword with a ridge and a sharp tip.

Philip · 13th December 2006, 10:04 PM

Henk,
A block is used only with the ax. In all cultures that I know of that used a sword or saber for decapitation, no block was necessary. As I have noted, a horizontal cut was used generally in Europe, the Near East, Siam, and sometimes in Vietnam, and the victim was kneeling with torso upright. When the vertical cut was used, the victim was made to kneel or stand in a bent-over position; a cord was attached below the ears and an assistant pulled to keep the neck stationary and extended (in pre-revolutionary China, the mandatory queue was used in lieu of the rope).

Henk · 14th December 2006, 08:23 PM

Philip,

You are right. A chopping blok for a sword would damage the edge. I looked to some pictures of the beheading of some famous dutch persons and found drawings of men kneeling with the torso upright but a little bend forward. I don't see a rope pulled by an assistant. But the artist could have left the assistant and the rope. Or our dutch nobles went with pride.

Philip · 14th December 2006, 11:47 PM

Henk,
Sorry, the verbiage in my post FAILED to keep the beasties apart (and to provide enough detail), and I see that you got confused. Let's try again.

HORIZONTAL CUT : primarily used in Europe, also in Siam, Arabia, and sometimes Vietnam. Victim is kneeling with torso (and head) upright, or nearly so. The position is easy for the victim to maintain with some degree of steadiness (though he/she is probably scared witless), and because of the arc of the cut, you can't have an assistant standing there if you don't want to deal with excessive employee turnover. The headsman swings the sword/saber horizontally, and the job is done. The Arab executioner often gives the victim a little poke in the side with the tip of the shamshir to get him to stiffen up straight, and then cuts immediately.

VERTICAL CUT: typically used in China, often in Vietnam and other oriental countries. Victim stands, bent over with torso/neck horizontal, or else kneels with head extending forward. It is more awkward for the victim (but nobody seemed to care about that!), and here is where the assistant and the looped cord around the ears comes into play. The idea is to keep neck extended and steady to receive a downward blow (in ax-using Euro. countries, the block served the same purpose).

Additional info:

The Japanese seemed to favor 45 degrees downward on a kneeling prisoner, based on some WW II photos that I saw of American and Australian POWs about to be executed by officers with katanas.

By the way, most of the info I have provided above comes from period engravings and photos, ranging from 16th cent. Germany to Qing illustrations to 19th cent. photos taken by western visitors to various Oriental countries.

S.Al-Anizi · 15th December 2006, 10:48 AM

Just a note to Philip, in Arabia, executioners perform vertical, not horizontal cut. The victim would be sitting on his knees, the headsman would jab him in the back with the tip of his saif, then off goes his head.

Philip · 15th December 2006, 08:30 PM

Thanks for the clarification. I thought it was horizontal, as explained once on an American TV documentary, and also per an artist's sketch that accompanied a newspaper article. Well, I guess those folks got it wrong, and I appreciate your correction.

ariel · 23rd December 2006, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.Al-Anizi

Just a note to Philip, in Arabia, executioners perform vertical, not horizontal cut. The victim would be sitting on his knees, the headsman would jab him in the back with the tip of his saif, then off goes his head.

Then, why does the professional Saudi Arabian executioner describes horizontal cuts?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3709

13th December 2006, 07:14 AM	#1
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	practice makes perfect I recall reading that in olden times, the executioner's trade was learned via an apprenticeship system. In many instances (particularly in France and even to this day in Saudi Arabia) the post was/is hereditary. Many generations of the Sanson family served the Bourbon kings, and on down through various restorations and republics, well into the 20th century. Being accurate and clean with a headsman's sword involves similar discipline and concentration required for effective cutting with combat swords as well. A friend and colleague is a taiji instructor who teaches sword and regularly practices cutting with jian. He tells me that the perpendicular cuts on the rolled-up mats are more demanding than oblique cuts. (if you tried cuts from various angles with a sharp machete while trimming tree limbs in your garden, you'll see what he means). The reason that swords and sabers can cut so effectively even though they are much lighter than axes is that their blades have much longer edges. It's the combination of percussive force AND the "slicing" motion imparted by the action of his arm that enables a swordsman to make a deep and devastating cut. A short chopping motion with a sword can be useful for that quick "nip" to disable an opponent's sword-arm or hit some vulnerable area, but is otherwise of limited effectiveness. Axes do well for chopping because of the weight of the head combined with the leverage of the handle. If you read Polish, a good book that explains saber design and the biomechanics of cutting is Wojciech Zablocki's CIECA PRAWDZIWA SZABLA (a true cut with a saber), Warsaw: Wydawnictwo Sport i Turystyka 1988.

13th December 2006, 10:04 PM	#3
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	chopping block Henk, A block is used only with the ax. In all cultures that I know of that used a sword or saber for decapitation, no block was necessary. As I have noted, a horizontal cut was used generally in Europe, the Near East, Siam, and sometimes in Vietnam, and the victim was kneeling with torso upright. When the vertical cut was used, the victim was made to kneel or stand in a bent-over position; a cord was attached below the ears and an assistant pulled to keep the neck stationary and extended (in pre-revolutionary China, the mandatory queue was used in lieu of the rope).

14th December 2006, 11:47 PM	#5
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	separating sheep from goats Henk, Sorry, the verbiage in my post FAILED to keep the beasties apart (and to provide enough detail), and I see that you got confused. Let's try again. HORIZONTAL CUT : primarily used in Europe, also in Siam, Arabia, and sometimes Vietnam. Victim is kneeling with torso (and head) upright, or nearly so. The position is easy for the victim to maintain with some degree of steadiness (though he/she is probably scared witless), and because of the arc of the cut, you can't have an assistant standing there if you don't want to deal with excessive employee turnover. The headsman swings the sword/saber horizontally, and the job is done. The Arab executioner often gives the victim a little poke in the side with the tip of the shamshir to get him to stiffen up straight, and then cuts immediately. VERTICAL CUT: typically used in China, often in Vietnam and other oriental countries. Victim stands, bent over with torso/neck horizontal, or else kneels with head extending forward. It is more awkward for the victim (but nobody seemed to care about that!), and here is where the assistant and the looped cord around the ears comes into play. The idea is to keep neck extended and steady to receive a downward blow (in ax-using Euro. countries, the block served the same purpose). Additional info: The Japanese seemed to favor 45 degrees downward on a kneeling prisoner, based on some WW II photos that I saw of American and Australian POWs about to be executed by officers with katanas. By the way, most of the info I have provided above comes from period engravings and photos, ranging from 16th cent. Germany to Qing illustrations to 19th cent. photos taken by western visitors to various Oriental countries.

15th December 2006, 08:30 PM	#7
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Arabia Thanks for the clarification. I thought it was horizontal, as explained once on an American TV documentary, and also per an artist's sketch that accompanied a newspaper article. Well, I guess those folks got it wrong, and I appreciate your correction.

13th December 2006, 06:44 PM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Emanuel, Handling a sword in a museum here in Holland is unthinkable, so the answer is no. Philip made a good point that the dutch sword I saw is similar to the germanic sword. And that doesn't surprise me at all. probably it wil be similar to any european execution sword. it wouldn't be a surprise if the dutch swords where from german or french origin or the other way Such a dutch or germanic execution sword is flat and doesn't tapper towards the end. A sharp pointed tip wasn't necesarry either. The only purpose for the sword was a blow with the edge to seperate the head from the body. So the only functional part of such a sword was a sharp edge. We all know the drawings of the european executions where the victim kneelded with his head on a chopping-block. No need for a tappering combat sword with a ridge and a sharp tip.

14th December 2006, 08:23 PM	#4
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Philip, You are right. A chopping blok for a sword would damage the edge. I looked to some pictures of the beheading of some famous dutch persons and found drawings of men kneeling with the torso upright but a little bend forward. I don't see a rope pulled by an assistant. But the artist could have left the assistant and the rope. Or our dutch nobles went with pride.

15th December 2006, 10:48 AM	#6
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Just a note to Philip, in Arabia, executioners perform vertical, not horizontal cut. The victim would be sitting on his knees, the headsman would jab him in the back with the tip of his saif, then off goes his head.