Proper Bali Grip?

Emanuel · 13th December 2006, 05:02 AM

Hello,

The last three comments above brought to mind this picture

from http://old.blades.free.fr/home.htm
It shows a grip different from that of Jawa keris, as well as a common? wear of Balinese keris.

Regards,
Emanuel

A. G. Maisey · 13th December 2006, 06:35 AM

Yes Emanuel, it does.

Problem is that these pics used to get set up and posed by the photographer. I don't think they can be regarded as 100% representative of reality. Actually, I've seen this pic somewhere. Can you save me from looking and give us a date?

Emanuel · 13th December 2006, 05:43 PM

Hello Alan,

You are quite right that the pose may be staged. The picture is on the website I indicated, and I remember seeing it in a book as well, but I cannot recollect which one at the moment. Unfortunately I cannot provide a date for it, as I do not even know its source.
I realize that the relief depiction on the [forgot the name] temple shows the Empu/Deity gripping the blade between his fingers, but I vaguely recall seeing a tapestry or painting of a Javanese battle which showed the warriors grasping the ukiran in a closed fist. I will look for it.
Wouldn't old paintings/depictions offer a reliable look at common wear? Of course, the subjects of these depictions would have dressed for the occasion I guess...

The few keris I have are of a Javanese style, so I cannot contribute to the discussion of Balinese hilts. I was thinking, however that a large Solo ukiran could also be held quite firmly without pinching the gonjo. It feels comfortable in hand. I have seen the grip you showed in a few books as well, and I understand that it is the accepted way of holding Jawa keris, but could this be a result of dance poses. I'm sorry to ramble like this, but pinching the gonjo between the index finger and the thumb seems like a very delicate way of gripping a weapon, akin to the intricate hand/finger movement in dances. I do not practice any martial art with weapons, so these are purely amateurish conjectures on my part.

Warn regards,
Emanuel

A. G. Maisey · 13th December 2006, 07:02 PM

I'm no martial artist either Emanuel, and frankly, I seriously doubt that we can look towards present day martial arts practice as a guide to how a weapon was used more than 200 years ago (in the case of Jawa).

I base my ideas on the grip used for a Javanese keris upon personal instruction from perhaps one of the last professionals to use a keris as a weapon; what I was taught seems to be in broad agreement with the pinch grip illustrated in , I think Hill, and possibly some other places.

The Javanese relief carvings show a different grip, used with a fore-runner of the modern keris, but in one relief at Panataran, it would be possible with considerable imagination to see a pinch grip in use.

When it comes right down to it, we can really only speculate about how a Javanese keris was held and used when it was actually used as a serious weapon, because by the beginning of the 19th century it had already become something other than purely a weapon.

However, the Balinese keris is a cat of a different colour. It was still used as a weapon up until the Dutch took control of South Bali in the early 20th. century.

Even though use of the keris as a weapon , comes closer to our own time, in Bali, it seems we still don't know very much about how it was held to be used. Again, we are only speculating, but I do think that in the case of Bali, we might be on slightly firmer ground than with Jawa. Nobody wraps a handle with non-slip twine, nor cuts deep non-slip notches in a handle, if that handle is not meant to be firmly held.

In respect of wear of the keris, I have worn a sarung as "at home dress" for most of my adult life. I can assure you that a Balinese keris stuck into the back of a sarung as it is in that picture , would not stay there until you got out the front gate.Even with a setagen, as used by Javanese people when in formal dress, I think it is doubtful that a Bali size keris would be practical to wear in this position.

VVV · 13th December 2006, 07:57 PM

The picture above of the Lombok Warriors is dated 1870-1890, photographer unknown, in the picture archive of Tropen.
Here are two additional pictures I found on the Internet.
The first is also from Lombok, but 1947.
The second I have no info on date etc.

Michael

David · 13th December 2006, 08:36 PM

The photo on the left looks like it is from the seires of of pics by Cartier-Bresson of the Barong dance. This may indicate correct grip, but then it is a dance, not actual combat, so it is hard to say. In the photo on the right the grip looks different. I can't tell for sure, but it seems that the forefinger is placed on the blabe. I tried to blow this up, but it pixelated too much to tell. The grip used by one of the two warriors is in fact a posed photo, but i wonder if the photographer would go so far as to tell the guy how to hold his keris. It is just as likely that he would hold it in a natural way for him even if the photographer positioned them in other ways.

VVV · 13th December 2006, 11:33 PM

Yes,

He has his forefinger at the blade on the last picture.
So 2 hilt only grip and 1 forefinger on the blade grip so far.
I tried a couple of Balinese Keris and I would have prefered using the guiding and stabilizing forefinger on the blade grip for stabbing.

Michael

13th December 2006, 07:57 PM	#5
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	The picture above of the Lombok Warriors is dated 1870-1890, photographer unknown, in the picture archive of Tropen. Here are two additional pictures I found on the Internet. The first is also from Lombok, but 1947. The second I have no info on date etc. Michael Attached Images

13th December 2006, 05:02 AM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, The last three comments above brought to mind this picture from http://old.blades.free.fr/home.htm It shows a grip different from that of Jawa keris, as well as a common? wear of Balinese keris. Regards, Emanuel

13th December 2006, 06:35 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yes Emanuel, it does. Problem is that these pics used to get set up and posed by the photographer. I don't think they can be regarded as 100% representative of reality. Actually, I've seen this pic somewhere. Can you save me from looking and give us a date?

13th December 2006, 05:43 PM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello Alan, You are quite right that the pose may be staged. The picture is on the website I indicated, and I remember seeing it in a book as well, but I cannot recollect which one at the moment. Unfortunately I cannot provide a date for it, as I do not even know its source. I realize that the relief depiction on the [forgot the name] temple shows the Empu/Deity gripping the blade between his fingers, but I vaguely recall seeing a tapestry or painting of a Javanese battle which showed the warriors grasping the ukiran in a closed fist. I will look for it. Wouldn't old paintings/depictions offer a reliable look at common wear? Of course, the subjects of these depictions would have dressed for the occasion I guess... The few keris I have are of a Javanese style, so I cannot contribute to the discussion of Balinese hilts. I was thinking, however that a large Solo ukiran could also be held quite firmly without pinching the gonjo. It feels comfortable in hand. I have seen the grip you showed in a few books as well, and I understand that it is the accepted way of holding Jawa keris, but could this be a result of dance poses. I'm sorry to ramble like this, but pinching the gonjo between the index finger and the thumb seems like a very delicate way of gripping a weapon, akin to the intricate hand/finger movement in dances. I do not practice any martial art with weapons, so these are purely amateurish conjectures on my part. Warn regards, Emanuel

13th December 2006, 07:02 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	I'm no martial artist either Emanuel, and frankly, I seriously doubt that we can look towards present day martial arts practice as a guide to how a weapon was used more than 200 years ago (in the case of Jawa). I base my ideas on the grip used for a Javanese keris upon personal instruction from perhaps one of the last professionals to use a keris as a weapon; what I was taught seems to be in broad agreement with the pinch grip illustrated in , I think Hill, and possibly some other places. The Javanese relief carvings show a different grip, used with a fore-runner of the modern keris, but in one relief at Panataran, it would be possible with considerable imagination to see a pinch grip in use. When it comes right down to it, we can really only speculate about how a Javanese keris was held and used when it was actually used as a serious weapon, because by the beginning of the 19th century it had already become something other than purely a weapon. However, the Balinese keris is a cat of a different colour. It was still used as a weapon up until the Dutch took control of South Bali in the early 20th. century. Even though use of the keris as a weapon , comes closer to our own time, in Bali, it seems we still don't know very much about how it was held to be used. Again, we are only speculating, but I do think that in the case of Bali, we might be on slightly firmer ground than with Jawa. Nobody wraps a handle with non-slip twine, nor cuts deep non-slip notches in a handle, if that handle is not meant to be firmly held. In respect of wear of the keris, I have worn a sarung as "at home dress" for most of my adult life. I can assure you that a Balinese keris stuck into the back of a sarung as it is in that picture , would not stay there until you got out the front gate.Even with a setagen, as used by Javanese people when in formal dress, I think it is doubtful that a Bali size keris would be practical to wear in this position.

13th December 2006, 08:36 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	The photo on the left looks like it is from the seires of of pics by Cartier-Bresson of the Barong dance. This may indicate correct grip, but then it is a dance, not actual combat, so it is hard to say. In the photo on the right the grip looks different. I can't tell for sure, but it seems that the forefinger is placed on the blabe. I tried to blow this up, but it pixelated too much to tell. The grip used by one of the two warriors is in fact a posed photo, but i wonder if the photographer would go so far as to tell the guy how to hold his keris. It is just as likely that he would hold it in a natural way for him even if the photographer positioned them in other ways.

13th December 2006, 11:33 PM	#7
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Yes, He has his forefinger at the blade on the last picture. So 2 hilt only grip and 1 forefinger on the blade grip so far. I tried a couple of Balinese Keris and I would have prefered using the guiding and stabilizing forefinger on the blade grip for stabbing. Michael