Katar (????) for comment ...

Jim McDougall · 11th December 2006, 08:13 PM

Still intrigued by this piece I have continued digging here, and as Jens notes, I agree with Andrew's extremely well worded observations supporting the construction of the example. I agree with Brian, that this appears to be a retro item and is was indeed very typical to have representative weapons fabricated for ceremonial purposes.

Although we all seem to agree this is a piece from southern India, it seems most indicators suggest that it is Mughal. As I had noted earlier, the motif may give us more clues as to possible provenance. I began looking at various Mughal metalwork and armour hoping to find similar design for the diamond pattern geometric diaper pattern, which at last I did in "Islamic Arms & Armour of Muslim India", (Dr.Syed Haider, Lahore, 1991). On p.98 there is a zirah (mail waist coat) with the distinct diagonal diaper pattern. Dr. Haider describes the pattern, typically describing wavy or geometric texture patterns employed in such design as termed 'ganga jumni pattern'. The symbolism supposedly alludes to the confluence of the rivers Ganges and Jamna and the meeting of muddy and clear waters.

Having determined that the geometric diaper pattern is indeed Mughal, I decided to look further into the flowers depicted, though as Jens indicated they are extremely difficult to see with the conflicting corrosion in the silver covering. It would seem they are a six petaled flower with pointed petal tip. In searching through "India: Arts and Culture" (Welch, p.220, fig.145), I found a near matching asiatic tulip, shown in a painting by Mughal emperor Jahangir c.1620. While these flowers seem to be native to Kashmir, and suggest northern Mughal regions...it would seem likely that such motif would be favored in revival or ceremonial retro elements fashioned for court wear in the southern Mughal courts as in most probably the Deccan.

I think it is worthy of note that the wear of quilted 'armor' was more typical of the southern regions, and such diagonal design seen on this katar would be more in line as an element en suite in accoutrement.

Best regards,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 11th December 2006, 09:48 PM

Interesting Jim, you have, as always, made your homework. Now when measuring my katars, between the side guards, I find that they have measurers between 6.5 cm and 7.5 cm. This alone would, to me, indicate that it was not meant to be used.

B.I · 11th December 2006, 11:03 PM

The dagger, I feel, shares a close resemblance is in Stone, page 487 fig 1 and 2. Although this dagger seems of completely different form, and has a langet that holds the blade, the overall feel is the same, as is the 'thin' construction. I have seen three of these daggers (inc the Stone/Met) and handled one of them. The image in Stone in decieving, and I feel sure they are of the same grouping.

Jim, your assessment is well written, as ever. I agree that this geometric diaper pattern has definate northern similarites, but also feel it is also a Deccani feature. Bidriware uses a variety of this, and it also decorates both scupture and temples in the south. I think that one aspect (ie the guard decoration) shouldnt be singled out, and maybe it is best to judge this piece as a whole. To me, it screams southern. The difference between Mughal and Deccani can sometimes be very subtle. I am sure i can find a northern piece that simulates this exact pattern, but that still doesnt steer my opinion from a southern origin.
But, this is all speculative and based on opinin only.

Rick, I am pretty sure that the katar from Leeds holds an Indian blade. They did occasionally go flamboyant, but the thickness, central ridge and steel patina doesnt seem to lend towards a South-East Asian origin. could be wrong though, as I am going by scant memory and the same image you are looking at.

Jens Nordlunde · 12th December 2006, 06:06 PM

Hi Jim,
Very interesting what you write about the tulips, as i did somewhere read that they used tulips for decoration, only i don't recall where i read it, but I will have to try and find it.

katana · 15th December 2006, 05:07 PM

Found this, these are described as South Indian Pata and are similar in construction to the 'Katar' which started this thread. Some have straps at the extreme ends of the 'guard' could be the reason for the holes seen on Husar's 'Katar'.....

Jens Nordlunde · 16th December 2006, 01:55 PM

Well Katana, I am quite relieved that Stone agrees with us, that Husar’s katar it from south India, and when I saw the last picture you posted, I did remember it. I think it is time I withdraw what I said about a ceremonial katar, but I am still of the opinion that a stab from a katar with a ‘normal’ grip will be more powerful, than it would be from one with a grip parallel to the blade.

15th December 2006, 05:07 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Found this, these are described as South Indian Pata and are similar in construction to the 'Katar' which started this thread. Some have straps at the extreme ends of the 'guard' could be the reason for the holes seen on Husar's 'Katar'..... Attached Images

11th December 2006, 08:13 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	Still intrigued by this piece I have continued digging here, and as Jens notes, I agree with Andrew's extremely well worded observations supporting the construction of the example. I agree with Brian, that this appears to be a retro item and is was indeed very typical to have representative weapons fabricated for ceremonial purposes. Although we all seem to agree this is a piece from southern India, it seems most indicators suggest that it is Mughal. As I had noted earlier, the motif may give us more clues as to possible provenance. I began looking at various Mughal metalwork and armour hoping to find similar design for the diamond pattern geometric diaper pattern, which at last I did in "Islamic Arms & Armour of Muslim India", (Dr.Syed Haider, Lahore, 1991). On p.98 there is a zirah (mail waist coat) with the distinct diagonal diaper pattern. Dr. Haider describes the pattern, typically describing wavy or geometric texture patterns employed in such design as termed 'ganga jumni pattern'. The symbolism supposedly alludes to the confluence of the rivers Ganges and Jamna and the meeting of muddy and clear waters. Having determined that the geometric diaper pattern is indeed Mughal, I decided to look further into the flowers depicted, though as Jens indicated they are extremely difficult to see with the conflicting corrosion in the silver covering. It would seem they are a six petaled flower with pointed petal tip. In searching through "India: Arts and Culture" (Welch, p.220, fig.145), I found a near matching asiatic tulip, shown in a painting by Mughal emperor Jahangir c.1620. While these flowers seem to be native to Kashmir, and suggest northern Mughal regions...it would seem likely that such motif would be favored in revival or ceremonial retro elements fashioned for court wear in the southern Mughal courts as in most probably the Deccan. I think it is worthy of note that the wear of quilted 'armor' was more typical of the southern regions, and such diagonal design seen on this katar would be more in line as an element en suite in accoutrement. Best regards, Jim

11th December 2006, 09:48 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Interesting Jim, you have, as always, made your homework. Now when measuring my katars, between the side guards, I find that they have measurers between 6.5 cm and 7.5 cm. This alone would, to me, indicate that it was not meant to be used.

11th December 2006, 11:03 PM	#3
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	The dagger, I feel, shares a close resemblance is in Stone, page 487 fig 1 and 2. Although this dagger seems of completely different form, and has a langet that holds the blade, the overall feel is the same, as is the 'thin' construction. I have seen three of these daggers (inc the Stone/Met) and handled one of them. The image in Stone in decieving, and I feel sure they are of the same grouping. Jim, your assessment is well written, as ever. I agree that this geometric diaper pattern has definate northern similarites, but also feel it is also a Deccani feature. Bidriware uses a variety of this, and it also decorates both scupture and temples in the south. I think that one aspect (ie the guard decoration) shouldnt be singled out, and maybe it is best to judge this piece as a whole. To me, it screams southern. The difference between Mughal and Deccani can sometimes be very subtle. I am sure i can find a northern piece that simulates this exact pattern, but that still doesnt steer my opinion from a southern origin. But, this is all speculative and based on opinin only. Rick, I am pretty sure that the katar from Leeds holds an Indian blade. They did occasionally go flamboyant, but the thickness, central ridge and steel patina doesnt seem to lend towards a South-East Asian origin. could be wrong though, as I am going by scant memory and the same image you are looking at.

12th December 2006, 06:06 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Jim, Very interesting what you write about the tulips, as i did somewhere read that they used tulips for decoration, only i don't recall where i read it, but I will have to try and find it.

16th December 2006, 01:55 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Well Katana, I am quite relieved that Stone agrees with us, that Husar’s katar it from south India, and when I saw the last picture you posted, I did remember it. I think it is time I withdraw what I said about a ceremonial katar, but I am still of the opinion that a stab from a katar with a ‘normal’ grip will be more powerful, than it would be from one with a grip parallel to the blade.