European Executioner Sword

Emanuel · 11th December 2006, 02:53 PM

Interesting information!

So these blades would have made useless weapons, then. That puts to rest one point brought up by the book. Actually the novel revolved around the adventures of the executioner employed at Boleyn's request...the story gets really weird, but the man repeatedly uses the sword in combat. That is now indicated as being impossible or at least foolish.

It's the shape of these things more than anything, that intrigues me. I'm curious to see how the real thing compares to my imagination.

All the best,
Emanuel

Jim McDougall · 11th December 2006, 04:32 PM

Hi Philip,
Its great to hear from you, and I'm glad you came in on this unusual topic. Thank you for the kind words

I very much appreciate you adding further depth to the data at hand, and especially for your notes on the actual structure and use of these weapons. I had not noticed the lenticular cross section that you well pointed out, and that feature certainly does seem characteristic on most examples.
I think that there has been some confusion in the resources I had checked and that in many cases 'bearing swords' are confused with actual 'heading' swords by writers on weapons. In some sources they seem to suggest these weapons were seldom used for thier suggested purpose. As you have noted, there certainly was an established use of them in these Continental countries.

Emanuel,
Although the subject matter is somewhat morbid, I'm actually glad you brought this topic to discussion, as I always am when something can be learned from it. I think here we all have.
I think that when considering material included in any work of fiction, one must beware the degree of license employed by the writer. Naturally most elements of historical data are embellished as required to lend well to the imagery of the story. I recall one instance years ago when questions were posted concerning a huge Scottish broadsword described in a 'historical' legend which had a ten pound sliding weight to 'add force to the cut'!
Naturally at the outset this seemed impossible. After considerable research this of course was found incorrect, and though several instances of sliding weights were mentioned, they occurred only in other literature, not in actual weapon descriptions.
Thank you for the very interesting query

Nicely done.

All the best,
Jim

VANDOO · 11th December 2006, 07:28 PM

I HAVE SEEN A FEW OF THESE SWORDS AND HANDLED SEVERAL THEY WOULD NOT BE MY CHOICE FOR BATTLE BUT COULD BE USED BY SOMEONE USED TO USING THEM. THESE TOOLS OF THE TRADE OF EXECUTION HAVE BEEN OF INTREST FOR A LONG TIME SO LIKE ALL RARE THINGS IN DEMAND HAVE BEEN FAKED. I HAVE HANDLED TWO VERY WELL MADE FAKES AS WELL AS A FEW FAKE HEADSMANS AXES SO BEWARE IF YOU ARE LOOKING TO BUY ONE AND CHECK IT OUT AND REQUEST BELEAVABLE PROVENANCE.
THE LARGEST NUMBER OF EXECUTIONERS SWORDS ARE FROM CHINA AND HAVE BEEN USED FREQUENTLY ON LARGE GROUP EXECUTIONS IN MORE RECENT TIMES THAN THEIR EUROPEAN COUNTERPARTS. IN EUROPE PEOPLE OF WEALTH OR POSITION WERE USUALLY GIVEN A QUICK DEATH OR IMPRISONED WHERE THEY DIED OUT OF SIGHT. BUT OFTEN THE POORER CITIZENS WHO GOT CROSSWAYS WITH THOSE IN POWER DIED A SLOW AND GRUSOME DEATH IN PUBLIC TO MAKE AN EXAMPLE FOR THE POOR MASSES. UNFORTUNATELY CASES OF MAKEING A HORRIBLE EXAMPLE TO INSTILL FEAR IN THE POPULATION IS STILL ALL TO COMMON IN THE WORLD TODAY.

Philip · 11th December 2006, 08:46 PM

Manolo and Jim,
I've handled a number of examples of the "Germanic" style of headsmans swords over the years, and although their intended use dictates that they be weighted in favor of the tip, they are by no means clubby or cumbersome. The swords tend to have a respectable distal taper, being quite stout at the forte and thin at the tip. Of course, they would not be as responsive as a combat sword, but having caused a fair amount of consternation at gun shows by wielding these (with owner's OK of course

) I wouldn't call them "useless" in a fight, either.

Keep in mind, as I have said, that continental headsmen cut with a horizontal stroke. I think that their swords were admirably designed for the function, and the fact that the blade format remained unchanged for centuries says something.

To do the grim job with a sword demands speed and accuracy; the weight of the weapon is secondary. Otherwise, an ax and block could be used, but that would be too "low-rent" for aristocratic convicts, wouldn't it?

Remember the stories of some of the Sanson family, who could cut so fast and sure that the head remained upright in place even after the follow-through of the swing was completed?

Philip · 11th December 2006, 09:03 PM

Vandoo,
For an explanation of the rationale behind punishment in pre-revolutionary Chinese judicial theory, and a description of the capital sentences, I would recommend Derk Bodde/Clarence Morris, LAW IN IMPERIAL CHINA, EXEMPLIFIED BY 190 CH'ING DYNASTY CASES, WITH HISTORICIAL, SOCIAL, AND JURIDICAL COMMENTARIES, (Univ. of Pennsylvania, 1971). For anyone with the slightest interest in law in traditional, non-Western societies, this is highly recommended. It's written in a style that even laymen can follow.

Regarding the implement used for decapitation, it was generally a saber or falchion (curved, single edged), not a sword as was the case in Europe. The cut was generally on a vertical plane (the Vietnamese seemed to have used both vertical and horizontal cuts, as seen in iconographic depictions).

Contrary to the case in the Germanic countries, there was apparently no one standard blade designed strictly for beheading in China. Historical illustrations (including those done before the age of photography) show the use of various styles of blades, from the commonly used sabers of the military (liuyedao), to the two handed falchions (dadao) also used by militias and civilians for fighting. Any one of those will work just fine for the purpose.

It seems that many Oriental nations didn't have a specialized beheading implement in common use -- the Japanese used their katanas, the Thais their darbs, and so forth. A recent filmclip sent to me by an Israeli friend featured an interview on Israel TV with the Lord High Executioner of the Saudi kingdom -- his favorite swords had standard shamshir blades, one of which was mounted in a hilt with a D knuckeguard.

Philip · 11th December 2006, 09:09 PM

Jim, you brought up an interesting point that may touch upon etymology...

I think that there is no doubt what the Euro. swords that we've been discussing were used for. So many of the German examples are engraved with motifs including the gallows, wheel, and simple verses dealing with justice and mercy. I've seen others with Latin inscriptions of a quasi-religious nature, these may be Bohemian or perhaps Polish.

I think that the "bearing" sword that you mention is another breed of cat -- a larger two hander (often of impressive size though not constructed in a particularly wieldable manner), and with a pointed tip. Museums in Europe are full of these things, I saw a gigantic example in the Museum of Scotland that was big enough to whack the head off a hippopotamous if (1) it had been sharp (2) if its blade and tang were sturdily constructed, and (3) if Paul Bunyan could be hired to swing it! (OK, I better shuddup now, I don't want the folks at PETA or the Animal Liberation Front after my hide for that last remark

)

Montino Bourbon · 12th December 2006, 06:34 PM

By the fact that this is treated as a 'macabre topic'. Hey, that's what swords are for! Execution, combat, it's all the same... hitting a human (mostly) with a sharp piece of metal in the hope of causing injury or speedy demise.

Naturally, we 'civilized' gentlemen (And ladies, should there be any present; I'm an equal-opportunity sort of guy) would prefer to not hurt others; and even though I'm a Vietnam-era veteran I've (Thank God) never had the need to kill or even injure anybody with any weapon. I'm all too well aware that a good sword is, in its final analysis, a good killing tool, and I actually was amused by the video of the Saudi executioner talking calmly about having breakfast before going out to 'do the job', just another day's work!

It's true; historical weapons had an enormous amount of care and art lavished on them, probably because they were responsible for preserving their owner's life. And I have to admit that I have been fascinated by ethnographic and historical weapons for years. I'm also well aware of the nature of weapons. I also happen to be a pacifist.

This is a discussion that is rife with very interesting material. I wish that we could have participants from a few centuries before ours.

11th December 2006, 08:46 PM	#4
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Euro. headsmans swords -- balance Manolo and Jim, I've handled a number of examples of the "Germanic" style of headsmans swords over the years, and although their intended use dictates that they be weighted in favor of the tip, they are by no means clubby or cumbersome. The swords tend to have a respectable distal taper, being quite stout at the forte and thin at the tip. Of course, they would not be as responsive as a combat sword, but having caused a fair amount of consternation at gun shows by wielding these (with owner's OK of course ) I wouldn't call them "useless" in a fight, either. Keep in mind, as I have said, that continental headsmen cut with a horizontal stroke. I think that their swords were admirably designed for the function, and the fact that the blade format remained unchanged for centuries says something. To do the grim job with a sword demands speed and accuracy; the weight of the weapon is secondary. Otherwise, an ax and block could be used, but that would be too "low-rent" for aristocratic convicts, wouldn't it? Remember the stories of some of the Sanson family, who could cut so fast and sure that the head remained upright in place even after the follow-through of the swing was completed?

11th December 2006, 09:03 PM	#5
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	judicial decapitation in China Vandoo, For an explanation of the rationale behind punishment in pre-revolutionary Chinese judicial theory, and a description of the capital sentences, I would recommend Derk Bodde/Clarence Morris, LAW IN IMPERIAL CHINA, EXEMPLIFIED BY 190 CH'ING DYNASTY CASES, WITH HISTORICIAL, SOCIAL, AND JURIDICAL COMMENTARIES, (Univ. of Pennsylvania, 1971). For anyone with the slightest interest in law in traditional, non-Western societies, this is highly recommended. It's written in a style that even laymen can follow. Regarding the implement used for decapitation, it was generally a saber or falchion (curved, single edged), not a sword as was the case in Europe. The cut was generally on a vertical plane (the Vietnamese seemed to have used both vertical and horizontal cuts, as seen in iconographic depictions). Contrary to the case in the Germanic countries, there was apparently no one standard blade designed strictly for beheading in China. Historical illustrations (including those done before the age of photography) show the use of various styles of blades, from the commonly used sabers of the military (liuyedao), to the two handed falchions (dadao) also used by militias and civilians for fighting. Any one of those will work just fine for the purpose. It seems that many Oriental nations didn't have a specialized beheading implement in common use -- the Japanese used their katanas, the Thais their darbs, and so forth. A recent filmclip sent to me by an Israeli friend featured an interview on Israel TV with the Lord High Executioner of the Saudi kingdom -- his favorite swords had standard shamshir blades, one of which was mounted in a hilt with a D knuckeguard.

11th December 2006, 09:09 PM	#6
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	"heading" or "bearing" Jim, you brought up an interesting point that may touch upon etymology... I think that there is no doubt what the Euro. swords that we've been discussing were used for. So many of the German examples are engraved with motifs including the gallows, wheel, and simple verses dealing with justice and mercy. I've seen others with Latin inscriptions of a quasi-religious nature, these may be Bohemian or perhaps Polish. I think that the "bearing" sword that you mention is another breed of cat -- a larger two hander (often of impressive size though not constructed in a particularly wieldable manner), and with a pointed tip. Museums in Europe are full of these things, I saw a gigantic example in the Museum of Scotland that was big enough to whack the head off a hippopotamous if (1) it had been sharp (2) if its blade and tang were sturdily constructed, and (3) if Paul Bunyan could be hired to swing it! (OK, I better shuddup now, I don't want the folks at PETA or the Animal Liberation Front after my hide for that last remark )

12th December 2006, 06:34 PM	#7
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	I'm somewhat mystified... By the fact that this is treated as a 'macabre topic'. Hey, that's what swords are for! Execution, combat, it's all the same... hitting a human (mostly) with a sharp piece of metal in the hope of causing injury or speedy demise. Naturally, we 'civilized' gentlemen (And ladies, should there be any present; I'm an equal-opportunity sort of guy) would prefer to not hurt others; and even though I'm a Vietnam-era veteran I've (Thank God) never had the need to kill or even injure anybody with any weapon. I'm all too well aware that a good sword is, in its final analysis, a good killing tool, and I actually was amused by the video of the Saudi executioner talking calmly about having breakfast before going out to 'do the job', just another day's work! It's true; historical weapons had an enormous amount of care and art lavished on them, probably because they were responsible for preserving their owner's life. And I have to admit that I have been fascinated by ethnographic and historical weapons for years. I'm also well aware of the nature of weapons. I also happen to be a pacifist. This is a discussion that is rife with very interesting material. I wish that we could have participants from a few centuries before ours.

11th December 2006, 02:53 PM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Interesting information! So these blades would have made useless weapons, then. That puts to rest one point brought up by the book. Actually the novel revolved around the adventures of the executioner employed at Boleyn's request...the story gets really weird, but the man repeatedly uses the sword in combat. That is now indicated as being impossible or at least foolish. It's the shape of these things more than anything, that intrigues me. I'm curious to see how the real thing compares to my imagination. All the best, Emanuel

11th December 2006, 04:32 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Hi Philip, Its great to hear from you, and I'm glad you came in on this unusual topic. Thank you for the kind words I very much appreciate you adding further depth to the data at hand, and especially for your notes on the actual structure and use of these weapons. I had not noticed the lenticular cross section that you well pointed out, and that feature certainly does seem characteristic on most examples. I think that there has been some confusion in the resources I had checked and that in many cases 'bearing swords' are confused with actual 'heading' swords by writers on weapons. In some sources they seem to suggest these weapons were seldom used for thier suggested purpose. As you have noted, there certainly was an established use of them in these Continental countries. Emanuel, Although the subject matter is somewhat morbid, I'm actually glad you brought this topic to discussion, as I always am when something can be learned from it. I think here we all have. I think that when considering material included in any work of fiction, one must beware the degree of license employed by the writer. Naturally most elements of historical data are embellished as required to lend well to the imagery of the story. I recall one instance years ago when questions were posted concerning a huge Scottish broadsword described in a 'historical' legend which had a ten pound sliding weight to 'add force to the cut'! Naturally at the outset this seemed impossible. After considerable research this of course was found incorrect, and though several instances of sliding weights were mentioned, they occurred only in other literature, not in actual weapon descriptions. Thank you for the very interesting query Nicely done. All the best, Jim

11th December 2006, 07:28 PM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I HAVE SEEN A FEW OF THESE SWORDS AND HANDLED SEVERAL THEY WOULD NOT BE MY CHOICE FOR BATTLE BUT COULD BE USED BY SOMEONE USED TO USING THEM. THESE TOOLS OF THE TRADE OF EXECUTION HAVE BEEN OF INTREST FOR A LONG TIME SO LIKE ALL RARE THINGS IN DEMAND HAVE BEEN FAKED. I HAVE HANDLED TWO VERY WELL MADE FAKES AS WELL AS A FEW FAKE HEADSMANS AXES SO BEWARE IF YOU ARE LOOKING TO BUY ONE AND CHECK IT OUT AND REQUEST BELEAVABLE PROVENANCE. THE LARGEST NUMBER OF EXECUTIONERS SWORDS ARE FROM CHINA AND HAVE BEEN USED FREQUENTLY ON LARGE GROUP EXECUTIONS IN MORE RECENT TIMES THAN THEIR EUROPEAN COUNTERPARTS. IN EUROPE PEOPLE OF WEALTH OR POSITION WERE USUALLY GIVEN A QUICK DEATH OR IMPRISONED WHERE THEY DIED OUT OF SIGHT. BUT OFTEN THE POORER CITIZENS WHO GOT CROSSWAYS WITH THOSE IN POWER DIED A SLOW AND GRUSOME DEATH IN PUBLIC TO MAKE AN EXAMPLE FOR THE POOR MASSES. UNFORTUNATELY CASES OF MAKEING A HORRIBLE EXAMPLE TO INSTILL FEAR IN THE POPULATION IS STILL ALL TO COMMON IN THE WORLD TODAY.