European Executioner Sword

Jim McDougall · 11th December 2006, 04:43 AM

Hi Chris,
And thank you very much

I agree completely in your perspective on these! Very well said.
These 'tools' could not interest me less, no matter how esoteric.
Thank you for sharing the Hutton excerpt also.
All the best,
Jim

Philip · 11th December 2006, 06:46 AM

Thanks, Jim, for the useful info on the topic.

Yes, it's true that the vast majority of specimens seen in collections and on the marketplace appear to be German or Moravian. However, I have encountered two or three Polish examples, of the same general form, as well. One element of the design of these devices, not mentioned in previous posts, is the CROSS SECTION of the blades. Invariably, it is lenticular and not lozenge-shaped as is the case with many blades intended for combat. A few have a short fuller at the forte, undoubtedly to move the point of balance out towards the tip.

Recently, I noticed in a dealer's online catalog (he's in TX, I recall) a HUNGARIAN example of a headsman's sword. Same blade type as the Germanic style described previously, but with a one hand grip patterned after an early hussar saber. Without seeing it in person, I can't rule out the possibility of it being a composite, since I have seen no similar example elsewhere.

A friend in Israel recently sent me a rather fuzzy photo of what is purportedly a French beheading sword, which he saw in a museum in Paris. It does have a lozenge-shaped section with a clearly defined central ridge, and an unusual blade profile which is wasp waisted at the forte, widens somewhat from there on out, and then comes to a point. Neither of us have encountered another one like it in any other collection, although the sword was de rigueur for capital sentences (for the aristocracy) in France until the Revolution and there ought to be more such blades in existence.

Ann Boleyn did indeed request to die by the sword; being of noble birth, she felt entitled to it and a headsman was brought over from France to do the job. The French had quite a reputation for proficiency in this grim task.

In both France and the Germanic countries, the headsman's sword was employed with a horizontal cutting stroke.

Emanuel · 11th December 2006, 02:53 PM

Interesting information!

So these blades would have made useless weapons, then. That puts to rest one point brought up by the book. Actually the novel revolved around the adventures of the executioner employed at Boleyn's request...the story gets really weird, but the man repeatedly uses the sword in combat. That is now indicated as being impossible or at least foolish.

It's the shape of these things more than anything, that intrigues me. I'm curious to see how the real thing compares to my imagination.

All the best,
Emanuel

Jim McDougall · 11th December 2006, 04:32 PM

Hi Philip,
Its great to hear from you, and I'm glad you came in on this unusual topic. Thank you for the kind words

I very much appreciate you adding further depth to the data at hand, and especially for your notes on the actual structure and use of these weapons. I had not noticed the lenticular cross section that you well pointed out, and that feature certainly does seem characteristic on most examples.
I think that there has been some confusion in the resources I had checked and that in many cases 'bearing swords' are confused with actual 'heading' swords by writers on weapons. In some sources they seem to suggest these weapons were seldom used for thier suggested purpose. As you have noted, there certainly was an established use of them in these Continental countries.

Emanuel,
Although the subject matter is somewhat morbid, I'm actually glad you brought this topic to discussion, as I always am when something can be learned from it. I think here we all have.
I think that when considering material included in any work of fiction, one must beware the degree of license employed by the writer. Naturally most elements of historical data are embellished as required to lend well to the imagery of the story. I recall one instance years ago when questions were posted concerning a huge Scottish broadsword described in a 'historical' legend which had a ten pound sliding weight to 'add force to the cut'!
Naturally at the outset this seemed impossible. After considerable research this of course was found incorrect, and though several instances of sliding weights were mentioned, they occurred only in other literature, not in actual weapon descriptions.
Thank you for the very interesting query

Nicely done.

All the best,
Jim

VANDOO · 11th December 2006, 07:28 PM

I HAVE SEEN A FEW OF THESE SWORDS AND HANDLED SEVERAL THEY WOULD NOT BE MY CHOICE FOR BATTLE BUT COULD BE USED BY SOMEONE USED TO USING THEM. THESE TOOLS OF THE TRADE OF EXECUTION HAVE BEEN OF INTREST FOR A LONG TIME SO LIKE ALL RARE THINGS IN DEMAND HAVE BEEN FAKED. I HAVE HANDLED TWO VERY WELL MADE FAKES AS WELL AS A FEW FAKE HEADSMANS AXES SO BEWARE IF YOU ARE LOOKING TO BUY ONE AND CHECK IT OUT AND REQUEST BELEAVABLE PROVENANCE.
THE LARGEST NUMBER OF EXECUTIONERS SWORDS ARE FROM CHINA AND HAVE BEEN USED FREQUENTLY ON LARGE GROUP EXECUTIONS IN MORE RECENT TIMES THAN THEIR EUROPEAN COUNTERPARTS. IN EUROPE PEOPLE OF WEALTH OR POSITION WERE USUALLY GIVEN A QUICK DEATH OR IMPRISONED WHERE THEY DIED OUT OF SIGHT. BUT OFTEN THE POORER CITIZENS WHO GOT CROSSWAYS WITH THOSE IN POWER DIED A SLOW AND GRUSOME DEATH IN PUBLIC TO MAKE AN EXAMPLE FOR THE POOR MASSES. UNFORTUNATELY CASES OF MAKEING A HORRIBLE EXAMPLE TO INSTILL FEAR IN THE POPULATION IS STILL ALL TO COMMON IN THE WORLD TODAY.

Philip · 11th December 2006, 08:46 PM

Manolo and Jim,
I've handled a number of examples of the "Germanic" style of headsmans swords over the years, and although their intended use dictates that they be weighted in favor of the tip, they are by no means clubby or cumbersome. The swords tend to have a respectable distal taper, being quite stout at the forte and thin at the tip. Of course, they would not be as responsive as a combat sword, but having caused a fair amount of consternation at gun shows by wielding these (with owner's OK of course

) I wouldn't call them "useless" in a fight, either.

Keep in mind, as I have said, that continental headsmen cut with a horizontal stroke. I think that their swords were admirably designed for the function, and the fact that the blade format remained unchanged for centuries says something.

To do the grim job with a sword demands speed and accuracy; the weight of the weapon is secondary. Otherwise, an ax and block could be used, but that would be too "low-rent" for aristocratic convicts, wouldn't it?

Remember the stories of some of the Sanson family, who could cut so fast and sure that the head remained upright in place even after the follow-through of the swing was completed?

Philip · 11th December 2006, 09:03 PM

Vandoo,
For an explanation of the rationale behind punishment in pre-revolutionary Chinese judicial theory, and a description of the capital sentences, I would recommend Derk Bodde/Clarence Morris, LAW IN IMPERIAL CHINA, EXEMPLIFIED BY 190 CH'ING DYNASTY CASES, WITH HISTORICIAL, SOCIAL, AND JURIDICAL COMMENTARIES, (Univ. of Pennsylvania, 1971). For anyone with the slightest interest in law in traditional, non-Western societies, this is highly recommended. It's written in a style that even laymen can follow.

Regarding the implement used for decapitation, it was generally a saber or falchion (curved, single edged), not a sword as was the case in Europe. The cut was generally on a vertical plane (the Vietnamese seemed to have used both vertical and horizontal cuts, as seen in iconographic depictions).

Contrary to the case in the Germanic countries, there was apparently no one standard blade designed strictly for beheading in China. Historical illustrations (including those done before the age of photography) show the use of various styles of blades, from the commonly used sabers of the military (liuyedao), to the two handed falchions (dadao) also used by militias and civilians for fighting. Any one of those will work just fine for the purpose.

It seems that many Oriental nations didn't have a specialized beheading implement in common use -- the Japanese used their katanas, the Thais their darbs, and so forth. A recent filmclip sent to me by an Israeli friend featured an interview on Israel TV with the Lord High Executioner of the Saudi kingdom -- his favorite swords had standard shamshir blades, one of which was mounted in a hilt with a D knuckeguard.

11th December 2006, 06:46 AM	#2
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	More comments on headsman's swords Thanks, Jim, for the useful info on the topic. Yes, it's true that the vast majority of specimens seen in collections and on the marketplace appear to be German or Moravian. However, I have encountered two or three Polish examples, of the same general form, as well. One element of the design of these devices, not mentioned in previous posts, is the CROSS SECTION of the blades. Invariably, it is lenticular and not lozenge-shaped as is the case with many blades intended for combat. A few have a short fuller at the forte, undoubtedly to move the point of balance out towards the tip. Recently, I noticed in a dealer's online catalog (he's in TX, I recall) a HUNGARIAN example of a headsman's sword. Same blade type as the Germanic style described previously, but with a one hand grip patterned after an early hussar saber. Without seeing it in person, I can't rule out the possibility of it being a composite, since I have seen no similar example elsewhere. A friend in Israel recently sent me a rather fuzzy photo of what is purportedly a French beheading sword, which he saw in a museum in Paris. It does have a lozenge-shaped section with a clearly defined central ridge, and an unusual blade profile which is wasp waisted at the forte, widens somewhat from there on out, and then comes to a point. Neither of us have encountered another one like it in any other collection, although the sword was de rigueur for capital sentences (for the aristocracy) in France until the Revolution and there ought to be more such blades in existence. Ann Boleyn did indeed request to die by the sword; being of noble birth, she felt entitled to it and a headsman was brought over from France to do the job. The French had quite a reputation for proficiency in this grim task. In both France and the Germanic countries, the headsman's sword was employed with a horizontal cutting stroke.

11th December 2006, 08:46 PM	#6
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Euro. headsmans swords -- balance Manolo and Jim, I've handled a number of examples of the "Germanic" style of headsmans swords over the years, and although their intended use dictates that they be weighted in favor of the tip, they are by no means clubby or cumbersome. The swords tend to have a respectable distal taper, being quite stout at the forte and thin at the tip. Of course, they would not be as responsive as a combat sword, but having caused a fair amount of consternation at gun shows by wielding these (with owner's OK of course ) I wouldn't call them "useless" in a fight, either. Keep in mind, as I have said, that continental headsmen cut with a horizontal stroke. I think that their swords were admirably designed for the function, and the fact that the blade format remained unchanged for centuries says something. To do the grim job with a sword demands speed and accuracy; the weight of the weapon is secondary. Otherwise, an ax and block could be used, but that would be too "low-rent" for aristocratic convicts, wouldn't it? Remember the stories of some of the Sanson family, who could cut so fast and sure that the head remained upright in place even after the follow-through of the swing was completed?

11th December 2006, 09:03 PM	#7
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	judicial decapitation in China Vandoo, For an explanation of the rationale behind punishment in pre-revolutionary Chinese judicial theory, and a description of the capital sentences, I would recommend Derk Bodde/Clarence Morris, LAW IN IMPERIAL CHINA, EXEMPLIFIED BY 190 CH'ING DYNASTY CASES, WITH HISTORICIAL, SOCIAL, AND JURIDICAL COMMENTARIES, (Univ. of Pennsylvania, 1971). For anyone with the slightest interest in law in traditional, non-Western societies, this is highly recommended. It's written in a style that even laymen can follow. Regarding the implement used for decapitation, it was generally a saber or falchion (curved, single edged), not a sword as was the case in Europe. The cut was generally on a vertical plane (the Vietnamese seemed to have used both vertical and horizontal cuts, as seen in iconographic depictions). Contrary to the case in the Germanic countries, there was apparently no one standard blade designed strictly for beheading in China. Historical illustrations (including those done before the age of photography) show the use of various styles of blades, from the commonly used sabers of the military (liuyedao), to the two handed falchions (dadao) also used by militias and civilians for fighting. Any one of those will work just fine for the purpose. It seems that many Oriental nations didn't have a specialized beheading implement in common use -- the Japanese used their katanas, the Thais their darbs, and so forth. A recent filmclip sent to me by an Israeli friend featured an interview on Israel TV with the Lord High Executioner of the Saudi kingdom -- his favorite swords had standard shamshir blades, one of which was mounted in a hilt with a D knuckeguard.

11th December 2006, 04:43 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Hi Chris, And thank you very much I agree completely in your perspective on these! Very well said. These 'tools' could not interest me less, no matter how esoteric. Thank you for sharing the Hutton excerpt also. All the best, Jim

11th December 2006, 02:53 PM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Interesting information! So these blades would have made useless weapons, then. That puts to rest one point brought up by the book. Actually the novel revolved around the adventures of the executioner employed at Boleyn's request...the story gets really weird, but the man repeatedly uses the sword in combat. That is now indicated as being impossible or at least foolish. It's the shape of these things more than anything, that intrigues me. I'm curious to see how the real thing compares to my imagination. All the best, Emanuel

11th December 2006, 04:32 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Hi Philip, Its great to hear from you, and I'm glad you came in on this unusual topic. Thank you for the kind words I very much appreciate you adding further depth to the data at hand, and especially for your notes on the actual structure and use of these weapons. I had not noticed the lenticular cross section that you well pointed out, and that feature certainly does seem characteristic on most examples. I think that there has been some confusion in the resources I had checked and that in many cases 'bearing swords' are confused with actual 'heading' swords by writers on weapons. In some sources they seem to suggest these weapons were seldom used for thier suggested purpose. As you have noted, there certainly was an established use of them in these Continental countries. Emanuel, Although the subject matter is somewhat morbid, I'm actually glad you brought this topic to discussion, as I always am when something can be learned from it. I think here we all have. I think that when considering material included in any work of fiction, one must beware the degree of license employed by the writer. Naturally most elements of historical data are embellished as required to lend well to the imagery of the story. I recall one instance years ago when questions were posted concerning a huge Scottish broadsword described in a 'historical' legend which had a ten pound sliding weight to 'add force to the cut'! Naturally at the outset this seemed impossible. After considerable research this of course was found incorrect, and though several instances of sliding weights were mentioned, they occurred only in other literature, not in actual weapon descriptions. Thank you for the very interesting query Nicely done. All the best, Jim

11th December 2006, 07:28 PM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I HAVE SEEN A FEW OF THESE SWORDS AND HANDLED SEVERAL THEY WOULD NOT BE MY CHOICE FOR BATTLE BUT COULD BE USED BY SOMEONE USED TO USING THEM. THESE TOOLS OF THE TRADE OF EXECUTION HAVE BEEN OF INTREST FOR A LONG TIME SO LIKE ALL RARE THINGS IN DEMAND HAVE BEEN FAKED. I HAVE HANDLED TWO VERY WELL MADE FAKES AS WELL AS A FEW FAKE HEADSMANS AXES SO BEWARE IF YOU ARE LOOKING TO BUY ONE AND CHECK IT OUT AND REQUEST BELEAVABLE PROVENANCE. THE LARGEST NUMBER OF EXECUTIONERS SWORDS ARE FROM CHINA AND HAVE BEEN USED FREQUENTLY ON LARGE GROUP EXECUTIONS IN MORE RECENT TIMES THAN THEIR EUROPEAN COUNTERPARTS. IN EUROPE PEOPLE OF WEALTH OR POSITION WERE USUALLY GIVEN A QUICK DEATH OR IMPRISONED WHERE THEY DIED OUT OF SIGHT. BUT OFTEN THE POORER CITIZENS WHO GOT CROSSWAYS WITH THOSE IN POWER DIED A SLOW AND GRUSOME DEATH IN PUBLIC TO MAKE AN EXAMPLE FOR THE POOR MASSES. UNFORTUNATELY CASES OF MAKEING A HORRIBLE EXAMPLE TO INSTILL FEAR IN THE POPULATION IS STILL ALL TO COMMON IN THE WORLD TODAY.