Katar (????) for comment ...

B.I · 10th December 2006, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

I meant, that all katars are weak weapons compared to other classic hilted daggers and swords, simply because the blade is soldered to the hilt and that soldering is never very extensive. I find the soldering on thatone much more stronger than on other katars. I bet that a normal classic katar or even a turup would break more easily than thatone.

Sorry, I cant agree with this. Not all katars are contructed the same. Some are one piece, and some have langets and are riveted. All of these, and the forge-welded examples were very sturdy, and not weak at all. The example you show does not show a typical katar construction, and so cant really be used to verify this point. This katar is a retro piece, based on a much earlier example and so not made for heavy use. Its original form dates back to the 16thC, but feel yours is much later. These pieces were shown in early sculpture, and so its form was revered and replicated.

Jens Nordlunde · 11th December 2006, 01:37 PM

Husar,

You have a most extraordinary katar; I have seen a fair number of katars, but never one like this one.

I too have a feeling that it is a ceremonial weapon, and Andrew has explained the reason for this very well. Most are mounted in such a fashion as to neatly handle significant linear force generated by a punching motion. The attachment of this blade directly to the guard as shown would not appear to be optimal for the linear or lateral forces one would expect to encounter.

South India gets my vote as well, and like several of you have mentioned, the katar is a very solid weapon. Well Jim, I can’t see the flowers well enough, and even if I could, it is not sure I would know which flowers it is. Congratulation with your acquisition.

Can you give us some measurers? Total length, length of blade, plate size, the width of the two bars, how much place is there for the hand?

Rick · 11th December 2006, 03:30 PM

B.I.,
I still think that wavy blade katar from the Royal Armouries bears a Bali keris blade.
Would you have any idea of the length of that piece?

The piece under discussion suggests (to me) use as a main gauche; that would explain the padding for the back of the hand.

Jim McDougall · 11th December 2006, 08:13 PM

Still intrigued by this piece I have continued digging here, and as Jens notes, I agree with Andrew's extremely well worded observations supporting the construction of the example. I agree with Brian, that this appears to be a retro item and is was indeed very typical to have representative weapons fabricated for ceremonial purposes.

Although we all seem to agree this is a piece from southern India, it seems most indicators suggest that it is Mughal. As I had noted earlier, the motif may give us more clues as to possible provenance. I began looking at various Mughal metalwork and armour hoping to find similar design for the diamond pattern geometric diaper pattern, which at last I did in "Islamic Arms & Armour of Muslim India", (Dr.Syed Haider, Lahore, 1991). On p.98 there is a zirah (mail waist coat) with the distinct diagonal diaper pattern. Dr. Haider describes the pattern, typically describing wavy or geometric texture patterns employed in such design as termed 'ganga jumni pattern'. The symbolism supposedly alludes to the confluence of the rivers Ganges and Jamna and the meeting of muddy and clear waters.

Having determined that the geometric diaper pattern is indeed Mughal, I decided to look further into the flowers depicted, though as Jens indicated they are extremely difficult to see with the conflicting corrosion in the silver covering. It would seem they are a six petaled flower with pointed petal tip. In searching through "India: Arts and Culture" (Welch, p.220, fig.145), I found a near matching asiatic tulip, shown in a painting by Mughal emperor Jahangir c.1620. While these flowers seem to be native to Kashmir, and suggest northern Mughal regions...it would seem likely that such motif would be favored in revival or ceremonial retro elements fashioned for court wear in the southern Mughal courts as in most probably the Deccan.

I think it is worthy of note that the wear of quilted 'armor' was more typical of the southern regions, and such diagonal design seen on this katar would be more in line as an element en suite in accoutrement.

Best regards,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 11th December 2006, 09:48 PM

Interesting Jim, you have, as always, made your homework. Now when measuring my katars, between the side guards, I find that they have measurers between 6.5 cm and 7.5 cm. This alone would, to me, indicate that it was not meant to be used.

B.I · 11th December 2006, 11:03 PM

The dagger, I feel, shares a close resemblance is in Stone, page 487 fig 1 and 2. Although this dagger seems of completely different form, and has a langet that holds the blade, the overall feel is the same, as is the 'thin' construction. I have seen three of these daggers (inc the Stone/Met) and handled one of them. The image in Stone in decieving, and I feel sure they are of the same grouping.

Jim, your assessment is well written, as ever. I agree that this geometric diaper pattern has definate northern similarites, but also feel it is also a Deccani feature. Bidriware uses a variety of this, and it also decorates both scupture and temples in the south. I think that one aspect (ie the guard decoration) shouldnt be singled out, and maybe it is best to judge this piece as a whole. To me, it screams southern. The difference between Mughal and Deccani can sometimes be very subtle. I am sure i can find a northern piece that simulates this exact pattern, but that still doesnt steer my opinion from a southern origin.
But, this is all speculative and based on opinin only.

Rick, I am pretty sure that the katar from Leeds holds an Indian blade. They did occasionally go flamboyant, but the thickness, central ridge and steel patina doesnt seem to lend towards a South-East Asian origin. could be wrong though, as I am going by scant memory and the same image you are looking at.

Jens Nordlunde · 12th December 2006, 06:06 PM

Hi Jim,
Very interesting what you write about the tulips, as i did somewhere read that they used tulips for decoration, only i don't recall where i read it, but I will have to try and find it.

HUSAR · 11th December 2006, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Husar,

You have a most extraordinary katar; I have seen a fair number of katars, but never one like this one.

I too have a feeling that it is a ceremonial weapon, and Andrew has explained the reason for this very well. Most are mounted in such a fashion as to neatly handle significant linear force generated by a punching motion. The attachment of this blade directly to the guard as shown would not appear to be optimal for the linear or lateral forces one would expect to encounter.

South India gets my vote as well, and like several of you have mentioned, the katar is a very solid weapon. Well Jim, I can’t see the flowers well enough, and even if I could, it is not sure I would know which flowers it is. Congratulation with your acquisition.

Can you give us some measurers? Total length, length of blade, plate size, the width of the two bars, how much place is there for the hand?

Hello here are some more measures :

The total length 50 cm
Blade length 34 cm
Blade is 3 cm wide to 1 cm near the tip
Plate wide 10.5 cm (at the top) 8 cm near bars
Plate hight 16.5 cm
larger bar 10 cm wide
smaller bar 7.5 cm wide
there is little space for hand like in some katars and tulwars, I can hardly put part of my hand inside...

11th December 2006, 01:37 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Husar, You have a most extraordinary katar; I have seen a fair number of katars, but never one like this one. I too have a feeling that it is a ceremonial weapon, and Andrew has explained the reason for this very well. Most are mounted in such a fashion as to neatly handle significant linear force generated by a punching motion. The attachment of this blade directly to the guard as shown would not appear to be optimal for the linear or lateral forces one would expect to encounter. South India gets my vote as well, and like several of you have mentioned, the katar is a very solid weapon. Well Jim, I can’t see the flowers well enough, and even if I could, it is not sure I would know which flowers it is. Congratulation with your acquisition. Can you give us some measurers? Total length, length of blade, plate size, the width of the two bars, how much place is there for the hand?

11th December 2006, 03:30 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	B.I., I still think that wavy blade katar from the Royal Armouries bears a Bali keris blade. Would you have any idea of the length of that piece? The piece under discussion suggests (to me) use as a main gauche; that would explain the padding for the back of the hand.

11th December 2006, 08:13 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Still intrigued by this piece I have continued digging here, and as Jens notes, I agree with Andrew's extremely well worded observations supporting the construction of the example. I agree with Brian, that this appears to be a retro item and is was indeed very typical to have representative weapons fabricated for ceremonial purposes. Although we all seem to agree this is a piece from southern India, it seems most indicators suggest that it is Mughal. As I had noted earlier, the motif may give us more clues as to possible provenance. I began looking at various Mughal metalwork and armour hoping to find similar design for the diamond pattern geometric diaper pattern, which at last I did in "Islamic Arms & Armour of Muslim India", (Dr.Syed Haider, Lahore, 1991). On p.98 there is a zirah (mail waist coat) with the distinct diagonal diaper pattern. Dr. Haider describes the pattern, typically describing wavy or geometric texture patterns employed in such design as termed 'ganga jumni pattern'. The symbolism supposedly alludes to the confluence of the rivers Ganges and Jamna and the meeting of muddy and clear waters. Having determined that the geometric diaper pattern is indeed Mughal, I decided to look further into the flowers depicted, though as Jens indicated they are extremely difficult to see with the conflicting corrosion in the silver covering. It would seem they are a six petaled flower with pointed petal tip. In searching through "India: Arts and Culture" (Welch, p.220, fig.145), I found a near matching asiatic tulip, shown in a painting by Mughal emperor Jahangir c.1620. While these flowers seem to be native to Kashmir, and suggest northern Mughal regions...it would seem likely that such motif would be favored in revival or ceremonial retro elements fashioned for court wear in the southern Mughal courts as in most probably the Deccan. I think it is worthy of note that the wear of quilted 'armor' was more typical of the southern regions, and such diagonal design seen on this katar would be more in line as an element en suite in accoutrement. Best regards, Jim

11th December 2006, 09:48 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Interesting Jim, you have, as always, made your homework. Now when measuring my katars, between the side guards, I find that they have measurers between 6.5 cm and 7.5 cm. This alone would, to me, indicate that it was not meant to be used.

11th December 2006, 11:03 PM	#6
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	The dagger, I feel, shares a close resemblance is in Stone, page 487 fig 1 and 2. Although this dagger seems of completely different form, and has a langet that holds the blade, the overall feel is the same, as is the 'thin' construction. I have seen three of these daggers (inc the Stone/Met) and handled one of them. The image in Stone in decieving, and I feel sure they are of the same grouping. Jim, your assessment is well written, as ever. I agree that this geometric diaper pattern has definate northern similarites, but also feel it is also a Deccani feature. Bidriware uses a variety of this, and it also decorates both scupture and temples in the south. I think that one aspect (ie the guard decoration) shouldnt be singled out, and maybe it is best to judge this piece as a whole. To me, it screams southern. The difference between Mughal and Deccani can sometimes be very subtle. I am sure i can find a northern piece that simulates this exact pattern, but that still doesnt steer my opinion from a southern origin. But, this is all speculative and based on opinin only. Rick, I am pretty sure that the katar from Leeds holds an Indian blade. They did occasionally go flamboyant, but the thickness, central ridge and steel patina doesnt seem to lend towards a South-East Asian origin. could be wrong though, as I am going by scant memory and the same image you are looking at.

12th December 2006, 06:06 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Jim, Very interesting what you write about the tulips, as i did somewhere read that they used tulips for decoration, only i don't recall where i read it, but I will have to try and find it.