Shamshir ?

spiral · 8th December 2006, 10:14 PM

Well in kukri we also run across this western need for single word pigion holing & naming labels,

But as always a rose by any other name would smell as sweet,

As long as we have the ability to use a sentace rather than one word to describe a weapon or tool I think thats the option I generaly prefer.

So many of them are highly individual & would escape round any exact catergerisations we imagined the label should match & Photos always help for clarity of discusian to of course!

Thats a nice heavily curved shamshir or perhaps more killj type blade with a lovely & ornate tulwar grip & typical Indian riccaso you have there Jens.

Spiral

Emanuel · 8th December 2006, 10:18 PM

Hello again,

How about the broad characteristics of the blade? A long ricasso area and wide blade exemplifies the tulwar, while the yelman is a kilij feature. Does the classical Persian shamshir have either of these? Did Persians commonly use wide blades with yelmans?
I understand these cannot be generalized to all pieces, but do they at least apply to the majority?

Regards,
Emanuel

ariel · 8th December 2006, 10:49 PM

My understanding is that "shamshir" is a generic word for Persian long curved swords, just like "kilij" is a generic Turkish name for a "sword".
Mughal curved swords were mostly called Tulwar. A straight Mughal sword with the Indo-Persian handle was still a Tulwar, and the same blade with a Basket handle was "khanda". If the blade was of Persian origin (see Fiegel) it was a shamshir. A shamshir-type sword was called "Klych" (kilij) in Russia, and the same was true among the Bedouins. A shamshir was called Ajemi Kilij ("Persian Kilij") in Turkey and Yelman-ed sword was called by Persians " Shamshir Torki" ( "Turkish Shamshir"). Each country gave these swords different names, but the pattern was the same.

"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other word would smell as sweet."

"Romeo and Juliet" (II, ii, 1-2)

Shamshirs were of different curvature. Even modestly curved blades were shamshirs. Abbas-period shamshirs were highly curved more often than the earlier samples.

8th December 2006, 10:18 PM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	[confused emoticon] Hello again, How about the broad characteristics of the blade? A long ricasso area and wide blade exemplifies the tulwar, while the yelman is a kilij feature. Does the classical Persian shamshir have either of these? Did Persians commonly use wide blades with yelmans? I understand these cannot be generalized to all pieces, but do they at least apply to the majority? Regards, Emanuel

8th December 2006, 10:14 PM	#1
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Well in kukri we also run across this western need for single word pigion holing & naming labels, But as always a rose by any other name would smell as sweet, As long as we have the ability to use a sentace rather than one word to describe a weapon or tool I think thats the option I generaly prefer. So many of them are highly individual & would escape round any exact catergerisations we imagined the label should match & Photos always help for clarity of discusian to of course! Thats a nice heavily curved shamshir or perhaps more killj type blade with a lovely & ornate tulwar grip & typical Indian riccaso you have there Jens. Spiral

8th December 2006, 10:49 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	My understanding is that "shamshir" is a generic word for Persian long curved swords, just like "kilij" is a generic Turkish name for a "sword". Mughal curved swords were mostly called Tulwar. A straight Mughal sword with the Indo-Persian handle was still a Tulwar, and the same blade with a Basket handle was "khanda". If the blade was of Persian origin (see Fiegel) it was a shamshir. A shamshir-type sword was called "Klych" (kilij) in Russia, and the same was true among the Bedouins. A shamshir was called Ajemi Kilij ("Persian Kilij") in Turkey and Yelman-ed sword was called by Persians " Shamshir Torki" ( "Turkish Shamshir"). Each country gave these swords different names, but the pattern was the same. "What's in a name? That which we call a rose By any other word would smell as sweet." "Romeo and Juliet" (II, ii, 1-2) Shamshirs were of different curvature. Even modestly curved blades were shamshirs. Abbas-period shamshirs were highly curved more often than the earlier samples.