Talismanic symbols?

Jens Nordlunde · 7th December 2006, 05:26 PM

Michael, du bad selv om det.

Let’s go to Nepal. I have a kukri, only one, but I like it a lot. As I don’t know much about these weapons I asked John Powell, and he very helpfully gave me the following text.
“The fish on a kukri is called ’matsaya’ in Nepali, and is very common. They represent the first incarnation of Vishnu, and are associated directly with him.
’Suvarna matsya’ are the twin golden fish facing each other, and symbolize being rescued from the ocean of misery of earthly existence.
The peacock is a very common symbol among the Nepalese, for good fortune, and used in many different designs.

The ’Hanuman’ is a half god . Half monkey and half human, he is portrayed in different manners and takes on a variety of positions.” (try to Google/Wikipedia. JN).

The Hanuman you can find on the top mount (the triangle one), the two golden fishes in the middle and the peacocks on the lower mount.

You did not answer the question about the kerises used in south India.

Jens

VVV · 7th December 2006, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Michael, du bad selv om det.
...The peacock is a very common symbol among the Nepalese, for good fortune, and used in many different designs....
You did not answer the question about the kerises used in south India.

Jens

Jens, that's OK

As you probably know other possible reasons for having a peacock on a weapon is that it's the mount of the war-god Skanda (aka Karttikeya, the son of Shiva and Parvati) as well as a Hindu symbol of immortality.

The reason I didn't answer your Indian keris question is that I neither have the book you referred to nor know anything about Indian kerises.
Maybe you can post some examples on the separate Keris forum and hopefully activate Alan Maisey on this interesting issue?

Michael

kai · 7th December 2006, 07:57 PM

Hello Jens,

Thanks for bringing this up again! Could you share some examples of Indian blades which you refer to as kris/keris-like?

It's certainly a matter of definition but I have yet to see an Indian example (either extant or recognizable from artwork) which could convincingly argued to be a direct ancestor of the Southeast Asian keris. I have no problems to believe that the idea of wavy blades got carried with Hindu culture to SE Asia but early keris seem to have straight blades...

Also there are quite a few swords with flaring out bases vaguely resembling the gonjo in keris. However, I have yet to see an asymmetrical (not to mention separately forged) gonjo in Indian blades. Moreover, this broad base is part of the hilt rather than the blade which makes for a very different production process. So while I can see some similarities I'm far from convinced that these Indian pieces are really related to keris.

Regards,
Kai

Jens Nordlunde · 8th December 2006, 03:56 PM

Sorry I don’t have much time, but remember that the peacock, besides from being a royal bird, and what has been described already, it was, like the goose, a very good watch bird. When someone, came into their territory, a palace garden, they made a lot of noise.

A thing, which has been discussed some time ago, is the three dots in a triangle. I don’t know what it means; I can only guess, but does anyone know it?

Colours and gemstones are also to be looked into, as both have a symbolic meaning, flowers have as well but it is a longer story.

Yustas · 9th December 2006, 03:55 AM

Foud intresting resource about symbolism. Bunch of drawings, they go back to pre-scythian times. They may be usefull for reading old signs from ancient pieces of history.
http://www.aratta-ukraine.com/symbol_ua.php?id=1&page=1

Here are two samples attached.

Rick · 9th December 2006, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Sorry I don’t have much time, but remember that the peacock, besides from being a royal bird, and what has been described already, it was, like the goose, a very good watch bird. When someone, came into their territory, a palace garden, they made a lot of noise.

A thing, which has been discussed some time ago, is the three dots in a triangle. I don’t know what it means; I can only guess, but does anyone know it?

Colours and gemstones are also to be looked into, as both have a symbolic meaning, flowers have as well but it is a longer story.

Jens,

What are your beliefs about the three dots?
To me they suggest the trident.

Jens Nordlunde · 10th December 2006, 02:35 PM

Yustas,

Thank you for your link, it is interesting to see the different decorations used in Ukraine, as some of the old decorations were used over a very large area. The question is, did the same decoration, used in different places, have the same meaning?

Rick,

To me the three dots are either talismanic and/or religious as I think they have been used in two different ways.

The big triangle (first picture). There is only one triangle, and it always has the base in direction of the hilt. The dots can be like on the picture or bigger, sometimes with inlay. I think this could be religious, maybe representing Vishnu, Brahma and Shiva, but I don’t know.

The small triangles like on the second picture starting and ending another decoration, here ‘eyelashes’, but I have also seem the small triangles at the start and end of fullers. This I think is more likely something talismanic, as if the ‘eyelashes’ ‘hide’ a message, and the triangles close the openings at the top and bottom – again pure guessing at the moment.

I hope we will find the answer one day, as I am sure it must be out there somewhere. To me it is strange that we, so far, have not found any explanation of the meaning, as the soldiers coming to India seeing these markings must have taken an interest in them, drawn them, and maybe even written an article about Indian markings – but where?

VVV · 10th December 2006, 08:12 PM

Jens and Rick,

You often see this triangular dot pattern on Sumatran weapons too.

I am also guessing but I think it represents Mata Shiva, the 3 eyes of Shiva (2 regular horisontal eyes and one eye above in the forehead).
Maybe combined with the Lingam?
A triangle pointing up is a Hindu symbol of the Lingam (down is of course Yoni).
In the case you describe the Shivaistic male forces of the Lingam is pointing towards the enemy.
But because of the dots, instead of the fully drawn triangle, I think the main meaning is Mata Shiva and the secondary meaning is the Lingam.

Some other explanations could be the trinity of the main gods, as you suggest.
Mahadeva in which the three gods of the Trimurti are all seen as aspects of Shiva.
And then we have f.i. the three aspects of creation, preservation and destruction.

Michael

7th December 2006, 05:26 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Michael, du bad selv om det. Let’s go to Nepal. I have a kukri, only one, but I like it a lot. As I don’t know much about these weapons I asked John Powell, and he very helpfully gave me the following text. “The fish on a kukri is called ’matsaya’ in Nepali, and is very common. They represent the first incarnation of Vishnu, and are associated directly with him. ’Suvarna matsya’ are the twin golden fish facing each other, and symbolize being rescued from the ocean of misery of earthly existence. The peacock is a very common symbol among the Nepalese, for good fortune, and used in many different designs. The ’Hanuman’ is a half god . Half monkey and half human, he is portrayed in different manners and takes on a variety of positions.” (try to Google/Wikipedia. JN). The Hanuman you can find on the top mount (the triangle one), the two golden fishes in the middle and the peacocks on the lower mount. You did not answer the question about the kerises used in south India. Jens Attached Images

9th December 2006, 03:55 AM	#5
Yustas Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 40	Ancient symbols Foud intresting resource about symbolism. Bunch of drawings, they go back to pre-scythian times. They may be usefull for reading old signs from ancient pieces of history. http://www.aratta-ukraine.com/symbol_ua.php?id=1&page=1 Here are two samples attached. Attached Images

10th December 2006, 02:35 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Yustas, Thank you for your link, it is interesting to see the different decorations used in Ukraine, as some of the old decorations were used over a very large area. The question is, did the same decoration, used in different places, have the same meaning? Rick, To me the three dots are either talismanic and/or religious as I think they have been used in two different ways. The big triangle (first picture). There is only one triangle, and it always has the base in direction of the hilt. The dots can be like on the picture or bigger, sometimes with inlay. I think this could be religious, maybe representing Vishnu, Brahma and Shiva, but I don’t know. The small triangles like on the second picture starting and ending another decoration, here ‘eyelashes’, but I have also seem the small triangles at the start and end of fullers. This I think is more likely something talismanic, as if the ‘eyelashes’ ‘hide’ a message, and the triangles close the openings at the top and bottom – again pure guessing at the moment. I hope we will find the answer one day, as I am sure it must be out there somewhere. To me it is strange that we, so far, have not found any explanation of the meaning, as the soldiers coming to India seeing these markings must have taken an interest in them, drawn them, and maybe even written an article about Indian markings – but where? Attached Images

10th December 2006, 08:12 PM	#8
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Jens and Rick, You often see this triangular dot pattern on Sumatran weapons too. I am also guessing but I think it represents Mata Shiva, the 3 eyes of Shiva (2 regular horisontal eyes and one eye above in the forehead). Maybe combined with the Lingam? A triangle pointing up is a Hindu symbol of the Lingam (down is of course Yoni). In the case you describe the Shivaistic male forces of the Lingam is pointing towards the enemy. But because of the dots, instead of the fully drawn triangle, I think the main meaning is Mata Shiva and the secondary meaning is the Lingam. Some other explanations could be the trinity of the main gods, as you suggest. Mahadeva in which the three gods of the Trimurti are all seen as aspects of Shiva. And then we have f.i. the three aspects of creation, preservation and destruction. Michael Last edited by VVV; 10th December 2006 at 09:01 PM. Reason: added alternative explanations

7th December 2006, 07:57 PM	#3
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Jens, Thanks for bringing this up again! Could you share some examples of Indian blades which you refer to as kris/keris-like? It's certainly a matter of definition but I have yet to see an Indian example (either extant or recognizable from artwork) which could convincingly argued to be a direct ancestor of the Southeast Asian keris. I have no problems to believe that the idea of wavy blades got carried with Hindu culture to SE Asia but early keris seem to have straight blades... Also there are quite a few swords with flaring out bases vaguely resembling the gonjo in keris. However, I have yet to see an asymmetrical (not to mention separately forged) gonjo in Indian blades. Moreover, this broad base is part of the hilt rather than the blade which makes for a very different production process. So while I can see some similarities I'm far from convinced that these Indian pieces are really related to keris. Regards, Kai

8th December 2006, 03:56 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Sorry I don’t have much time, but remember that the peacock, besides from being a royal bird, and what has been described already, it was, like the goose, a very good watch bird. When someone, came into their territory, a palace garden, they made a lot of noise. A thing, which has been discussed some time ago, is the three dots in a triangle. I don’t know what it means; I can only guess, but does anyone know it? Colours and gemstones are also to be looked into, as both have a symbolic meaning, flowers have as well but it is a longer story.