Ancestors of modern sabers

Philip · 5th December 2006, 05:05 AM

Teodor,
Thanks for the information. In my post, the Avar attribution is something given to the pieces which are now coming onto the marketplace in Western Europe; I wouldn't necessarily ID them as such, but you can look at the autumn 2005 catalog of Hermann Historica in Munich to see what I mean. I meant to say that dealers are calling them that, it's up to individual collectors and students to identify them properly. Sorry if I caused any confusion.

In my post I did not specifically give the credit to the Avars for bringing sabers to Europe, I am quite familiar with the Magyars. I trust that you have W. W. Arendt's article on these early sabers in an issue of ARCHAEOLOGICA HUNGARICA from the 1930s, and other literature pertaining to this material.

TVV · 5th December 2006, 06:13 AM

Philip,
Thanks for pointing out Arendt's article to me - I have not read it but I will try to find it. My primary interest in this age lies not with the Magyars, but with the Bulgars (Danube and Volga) and the Avars (as far as these mixed with the Bulgars), and so it is Avar and especially Bulgar weapons that I have studied. This is why I found it necessary to point out that unless there are new archaeological discoveries, these two peoples do not seem to have known know the sabre, or at least to have used it as extensively as the Magyars did later. I am sorry if I created any confusion.
As for the attributions, I am sure we agree that auction houses should not be trusted completely. The sword pictured in Hermann-Historica's catalogue is interesting, but I would not call it a sabre, since it is not curved (and Hermann-Historica do not call it a sabre either). As for the dating, I hope one day there will be a realiable study which would be able to separate sabres into periods and cultures according to style (Bulgar sabres, once they were adopted were different from the Magyar ones, but this is a different topic). For now, I think that a dating needs to be attributed according to finds surrounding the sabre, such as pottery, jewelry, etc. One thing is certain - it is not Avar - the blade is too narrow and too long. Furthermore, the term Avarisch-Chasarisch is way too broad, just as the term Eurasian, and seems to be applied to any Steppe Peoples' weapon from the sixth century Avars to the 13th century Cumans.
This is a fascinating topic, which has not been studied enough. My knowledge is extremely limited, and I would love to learn as much as I can.
Regards,
Teodor

Philip · 5th December 2006, 06:43 AM

Teodor,
You are right, more research is necessary in this field. Swords, backswords, and sabers of the various peoples which inhabited vast stretches of western Asia and eastern Europe during the middle ages have been recovered and studied by scholars of various nations, but what is needed is a comprhensive study that attempts to tie together all of these in an overall historical and ethnographic context.

You might find these works useful, included is the complete citation for Arendt's article.

W. Arendt, "Tuerkische Saebel aus den VIII-IX. Jahrhunderts", ARCHAEOLOGICA HUNGARICA 16, (1935). A very rare publication, I searched bookstores all over Budapest with no luck, I found a copy in the library of the Metropolitan Museum of Art.

Anatolij Kirpicnikov, "Der sogenante Saebel Karls des Grossen", GLADIUS 10 (1972)

---, "Mittelaelterlicher Saebel mit einer armenischen Inschriften gefunden in subpolaren Ural", GLADIUS 10, (1972)

Yu. S. Khudyakov, VOORUZHENIYE YENISEYSKIKH KYRGYZOV: VI-XII vv, (Novosibirsk: Akademia Nauk SSSR, 1980

Rivkin · 5th December 2006, 07:56 PM

Khudyakov since then wrote two brochures, which incorporate the given article- Weapons of Central Asia in middle ages (end in XIth century) and Weapons of Central Asia, late middle ages (a.k.a. mongol period). What can I say - phenomenal reviews. I have both, in electronic format. Then there is Derevjanko "To the question of arms of Mohe warrior", Ivanov "Arms of middle age nomads of southern Urals and ...", Pletneva "Ancient Russia - city, castle, village", Komar and Suhobokov "Weapons and military of Khazar Kaganate", Kaminsky 3 part review articles "Alanic weapons ...", and so on and so on, including dozens of Ph.D.

Philip, let's change - I have all of the stuff above and much more in electronics, tell me what you need

I can even help translate. But I don't have this:

W. Arendt, "Tuerkische Saebel aus den VIII-IX. Jahrhunderts", ARCHAEOLOGICA HUNGARICA 16, (1935). A very rare publication, I searched bookstores all over Budapest with no luck, I found a copy in the library of the Metropolitan Museum of Art.
Anatolij Kirpicnikov, "Der sogenante Saebel Karls des Grossen", GLADIUS 10 (1972)

TVV · 6th December 2006, 03:55 AM

Wouldn't it be easier to simply upload these articles, which are in electronic format or easy to scan, somewhere? I can arrange hosting for a certain amount of time.
Here is what I have in electronic format (scanned and pdf-ed):

Кирпичников А. Н. Древнерусское оружие. Вып. 1. Мечи и сабли ІХ-ХІІІ вв. САИ. E1-36. M.1966.

Йотов, Валери - "Въоръжението и Снаряжението от Първото Българско Царство (VII - IX век)" - the chapter on sabres (A catalogue of all known archaeological finds from the 7th to the 9th centuries on the territory of nowadays Bulgaria. Anyone who can read Russian would be able to understand the vital information in the text - dating, measurements, and location of the finds).

I personally could not agree more that a non-biased, comprehensive study of the swords used by the Peoples inhabitting Eastern Europe and Western Asia in the middle ages is really needed, as Eastern European scholars tend to be under nationalistic influences - for example there is a tendency in Bulgaria for archeologists attributing almost every find to the Bulgars, as opposed to Magyars, Avars, Cumans and other ethnicities using similar weapons, who passed through the same lands. However, I am not an academian, just a collector and part-time enthusiast, and all I can do is just gather as much information as I can and then pass it on to people I know, who might actually be willing to study the subject thoroughly and write a major work on it.
Regards,
Teodor

Rivkin · 6th December 2006, 06:26 AM

Space is not a problem - I have a website. However, I would not want to post it for everyone to see, so here is what I think:

a. Everyone who wants to see my materials, please e-mail me using our forum.
b. Since most of the materials are in word I can use a robot to translate it from russian to english. Would it be desirable or not ?

I will need two weeks to do it.

Rivkin · 6th December 2006, 05:14 PM

Gentlemen,

Thank you for all the information I received in emails. I need an advice on whether to put the information in "bastardized" english translation, or in russian original.

I have a conference in January, but will do the best I can to put the material on the web ASAP.

Sincerely yours,

Kirill Rivkin

5th December 2006, 06:43 AM	#3
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	bibliographical references Teodor, You are right, more research is necessary in this field. Swords, backswords, and sabers of the various peoples which inhabited vast stretches of western Asia and eastern Europe during the middle ages have been recovered and studied by scholars of various nations, but what is needed is a comprhensive study that attempts to tie together all of these in an overall historical and ethnographic context. You might find these works useful, included is the complete citation for Arendt's article. W. Arendt, "Tuerkische Saebel aus den VIII-IX. Jahrhunderts", ARCHAEOLOGICA HUNGARICA 16, (1935). A very rare publication, I searched bookstores all over Budapest with no luck, I found a copy in the library of the Metropolitan Museum of Art. Anatolij Kirpicnikov, "Der sogenante Saebel Karls des Grossen", GLADIUS 10 (1972) ---, "Mittelaelterlicher Saebel mit einer armenischen Inschriften gefunden in subpolaren Ural", GLADIUS 10, (1972) Yu. S. Khudyakov, VOORUZHENIYE YENISEYSKIKH KYRGYZOV: VI-XII vv, (Novosibirsk: Akademia Nauk SSSR, 1980

5th December 2006, 05:05 AM	#1
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Teodor, Thanks for the information. In my post, the Avar attribution is something given to the pieces which are now coming onto the marketplace in Western Europe; I wouldn't necessarily ID them as such, but you can look at the autumn 2005 catalog of Hermann Historica in Munich to see what I mean. I meant to say that dealers are calling them that, it's up to individual collectors and students to identify them properly. Sorry if I caused any confusion. In my post I did not specifically give the credit to the Avars for bringing sabers to Europe, I am quite familiar with the Magyars. I trust that you have W. W. Arendt's article on these early sabers in an issue of ARCHAEOLOGICA HUNGARICA from the 1930s, and other literature pertaining to this material.

5th December 2006, 06:13 AM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Philip, Thanks for pointing out Arendt's article to me - I have not read it but I will try to find it. My primary interest in this age lies not with the Magyars, but with the Bulgars (Danube and Volga) and the Avars (as far as these mixed with the Bulgars), and so it is Avar and especially Bulgar weapons that I have studied. This is why I found it necessary to point out that unless there are new archaeological discoveries, these two peoples do not seem to have known know the sabre, or at least to have used it as extensively as the Magyars did later. I am sorry if I created any confusion. As for the attributions, I am sure we agree that auction houses should not be trusted completely. The sword pictured in Hermann-Historica's catalogue is interesting, but I would not call it a sabre, since it is not curved (and Hermann-Historica do not call it a sabre either). As for the dating, I hope one day there will be a realiable study which would be able to separate sabres into periods and cultures according to style (Bulgar sabres, once they were adopted were different from the Magyar ones, but this is a different topic). For now, I think that a dating needs to be attributed according to finds surrounding the sabre, such as pottery, jewelry, etc. One thing is certain - it is not Avar - the blade is too narrow and too long. Furthermore, the term Avarisch-Chasarisch is way too broad, just as the term Eurasian, and seems to be applied to any Steppe Peoples' weapon from the sixth century Avars to the 13th century Cumans. This is a fascinating topic, which has not been studied enough. My knowledge is extremely limited, and I would love to learn as much as I can. Regards, Teodor

5th December 2006, 07:56 PM	#4
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Khudyakov since then wrote two brochures, which incorporate the given article- Weapons of Central Asia in middle ages (end in XIth century) and Weapons of Central Asia, late middle ages (a.k.a. mongol period). What can I say - phenomenal reviews. I have both, in electronic format. Then there is Derevjanko "To the question of arms of Mohe warrior", Ivanov "Arms of middle age nomads of southern Urals and ...", Pletneva "Ancient Russia - city, castle, village", Komar and Suhobokov "Weapons and military of Khazar Kaganate", Kaminsky 3 part review articles "Alanic weapons ...", and so on and so on, including dozens of Ph.D. Philip, let's change - I have all of the stuff above and much more in electronics, tell me what you need I can even help translate. But I don't have this: W. Arendt, "Tuerkische Saebel aus den VIII-IX. Jahrhunderts", ARCHAEOLOGICA HUNGARICA 16, (1935). A very rare publication, I searched bookstores all over Budapest with no luck, I found a copy in the library of the Metropolitan Museum of Art. Anatolij Kirpicnikov, "Der sogenante Saebel Karls des Grossen", GLADIUS 10 (1972)

6th December 2006, 03:55 AM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Wouldn't it be easier to simply upload these articles, which are in electronic format or easy to scan, somewhere? I can arrange hosting for a certain amount of time. Here is what I have in electronic format (scanned and pdf-ed): Кирпичников А. Н. Древнерусское оружие. Вып. 1. Мечи и сабли ІХ-ХІІІ вв. САИ. E1-36. M.1966. Йотов, Валери - "Въоръжението и Снаряжението от Първото Българско Царство (VII - IX век)" - the chapter on sabres (A catalogue of all known archaeological finds from the 7th to the 9th centuries on the territory of nowadays Bulgaria. Anyone who can read Russian would be able to understand the vital information in the text - dating, measurements, and location of the finds). I personally could not agree more that a non-biased, comprehensive study of the swords used by the Peoples inhabitting Eastern Europe and Western Asia in the middle ages is really needed, as Eastern European scholars tend to be under nationalistic influences - for example there is a tendency in Bulgaria for archeologists attributing almost every find to the Bulgars, as opposed to Magyars, Avars, Cumans and other ethnicities using similar weapons, who passed through the same lands. However, I am not an academian, just a collector and part-time enthusiast, and all I can do is just gather as much information as I can and then pass it on to people I know, who might actually be willing to study the subject thoroughly and write a major work on it. Regards, Teodor

6th December 2006, 06:26 AM	#6
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Space is not a problem - I have a website. However, I would not want to post it for everyone to see, so here is what I think: a. Everyone who wants to see my materials, please e-mail me using our forum. b. Since most of the materials are in word I can use a robot to translate it from russian to english. Would it be desirable or not ? I will need two weeks to do it.

6th December 2006, 05:14 PM	#7
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Gentlemen, Thank you for all the information I received in emails. I need an advice on whether to put the information in "bastardized" english translation, or in russian original. I have a conference in January, but will do the best I can to put the material on the web ASAP. Sincerely yours, Kirill Rivkin