Brass Dagger

Robert · 4th December 2006, 09:19 PM

Tim, I only have one spear (only the head itself ) in my collection. It is from Africa and made of thin steel and looks no where near as serviceable as your example. I would agree by the way that yours was made that it was not just ceremonial but made with enough added strength to make it quite functional as well. Maybe this was just the thing that you would take with you to the big dance just for that one jerk that kept trying to put the move on your best girl.

Robert · 7th December 2006, 02:39 AM

A friend furnished me with this on copper blades. "Copper with a sufficient amount of arsenic added would enable the blade to have been work-hardened to a considerable degree without becoming brittle." This might help account for the belief that being stabbed with a copper blade to be fatal.

Robert

Andrew · 7th December 2006, 04:36 AM

I have an old copper-bladed mak we discussed here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=copper

Robert · 13th December 2006, 04:33 AM

Here is another copper bladed dagger of similar size. I'm not sure if it has the same age as the other one posted but still an interesting item. Can anyone tell me if there is a way to test for arsenic content on or in the blades on these daggers? Thanks.

Robert

Marc · 13th December 2006, 09:49 AM

Just as a clarification...
The use of arsenical copper is linked to the improvement of the mechanical properties of this alloy in front of pure copper, and it's usually related to the availability of arsenic-rich copper ore sources. Under some conditions, that include a higher percentage of As in the alloy, the object may develop a silvery-coloured surface, an effect that in some cases was desirable for aesthetics reasons. All this, at least from an historical point of view. In many places, this technology became “obsolete” with the beginning of the use of tin bronze.
Here we deal with an object which nature is tied to a particular set of cultural parameters, in which I'm afraid the mechanical properties have nothing to do with the choice of the material for the blade...
I don't know the effect in a human body of a wound with an arsenical-copper alloy object. Plus, beyond the pure biological effects, there's a lot of additional factors to be accounted for, as the proportion of arsenic in the object, the possible surface enrichment of this last element in each particular case, the aspect that such arsenic usually takes in the surface of the blade (an oxide, a sulphide, etc...), the ability of it to be dissolved in a fluid, etc... These should allow us to say if a simple cut can be dangerous (which I doubt) or if something like a good, honest stab would be needed, in which case poisoning would probably be the last of one's problems.

In short, the reasons for the use of copper/bronze/brass blades should probably better be looked for in its cultural background, not in any technological factors.

Marc

13th December 2006, 04:33 AM	#4
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Here is another copper bladed dagger of similar size. I'm not sure if it has the same age as the other one posted but still an interesting item. Can anyone tell me if there is a way to test for arsenic content on or in the blades on these daggers? Thanks. Robert Attached Images

4th December 2006, 09:19 PM	#1
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Tim, I only have one spear (only the head itself ) in my collection. It is from Africa and made of thin steel and looks no where near as serviceable as your example. I would agree by the way that yours was made that it was not just ceremonial but made with enough added strength to make it quite functional as well. Maybe this was just the thing that you would take with you to the big dance just for that one jerk that kept trying to put the move on your best girl.

7th December 2006, 02:39 AM	#2
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	A friend furnished me with this on copper blades. "Copper with a sufficient amount of arsenic added would enable the blade to have been work-hardened to a considerable degree without becoming brittle." This might help account for the belief that being stabbed with a copper blade to be fatal. Robert

7th December 2006, 04:36 AM	#3
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I have an old copper-bladed mak we discussed here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=copper

13th December 2006, 09:49 AM	#5
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Just as a clarification... The use of arsenical copper is linked to the improvement of the mechanical properties of this alloy in front of pure copper, and it's usually related to the availability of arsenic-rich copper ore sources. Under some conditions, that include a higher percentage of As in the alloy, the object may develop a silvery-coloured surface, an effect that in some cases was desirable for aesthetics reasons. All this, at least from an historical point of view. In many places, this technology became “obsolete” with the beginning of the use of tin bronze. Here we deal with an object which nature is tied to a particular set of cultural parameters, in which I'm afraid the mechanical properties have nothing to do with the choice of the material for the blade... I don't know the effect in a human body of a wound with an arsenical-copper alloy object. Plus, beyond the pure biological effects, there's a lot of additional factors to be accounted for, as the proportion of arsenic in the object, the possible surface enrichment of this last element in each particular case, the aspect that such arsenic usually takes in the surface of the blade (an oxide, a sulphide, etc...), the ability of it to be dissolved in a fluid, etc... These should allow us to say if a simple cut can be dangerous (which I doubt) or if something like a good, honest stab would be needed, in which case poisoning would probably be the last of one's problems. In short, the reasons for the use of copper/bronze/brass blades should probably better be looked for in its cultural background, not in any technological factors. Marc