Meteoric iron used for keris's vs. for Indian weapons

BSMStar · 16th February 2005, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

Hi guys,

Regarding the composition of Nantan Meteorites, my only worry is that some of the elements in it might be dangerous when melted. However i read that the Chineese had melted them and use them as weapons a long time ago. I suppose theres no danger in doing that. If anybody have any information regarding this can u please tell me. I dont wanna cause trouble to my keris smith. Thanks.

Hi rasdan!

I understand, I think you are Ok with the metallic part of the Nantan. There shouldn't be any volatile components there... but there may be a small amount volatile inclusions scatter through the meteorite. It is not wise to breathe the vapors from "hot" iron... so if the smith is using adequate ventilation and proper procedures.....
You may want to be sure you are working with an un-oxidized meteorite. Nantan is and old "fall" and has weathered for 400 years. Most of the pieces will mainly be iron oxides rather than workable metallic iron. Your Smith will know when they go to forge it and it will "fall apart under the hammer."

Best of luck and let us know how it goes!

BSMStar

Henk · 16th February 2005, 06:57 PM

Depending to the books of Tammens there should be a lot of keris made from meteorite iron.

Tammens wrote in his books about different colors of pamor depending on the kind of metalls that were used. Tammens wrote also about research on the metal of keris and older keris showed after analysis that during the forging-proces meteorite pamor was used. Meteorite metal contains nickle in different degrees. Tammens, part 1, chapter Pamor, the soul of the kris.

Jens Nordlunde · 16th February 2005, 09:38 PM

I must say, I don't know much about kerise's - close to nothing if I have to be honest, but when reading another thread it seems to be close to impossible to recognice meteroric metal, when the blade has been made. Did I miss something?

Jens

Henk · 17th February 2005, 09:59 AM

I don't think you missed anything Jens, this is a very hard subject.

Tammens refers in his book to this forging with meteorite metall and mentions the differences between the meteorite pamor and the pamor made from pure nickle bars, mixed with the common iron. The pamor that comes up is very bright and the pamor from meteor iron has softer tones and gives more non pamor fields on the blade. But to be honest, I cann't recognize metoric pamor. But if we may believe the literature and research has been done, there should be alot of kerisses around made with meteoric pamor.

nechesh · 17th February 2005, 11:41 AM

Hi Henk. I believe that is the problem right there. I respect Tammens and his books, but i believe this is one instance where is is just mistaken.

Henk · 17th February 2005, 12:34 PM

Hello Nechesh,

I'm sceptical too, but Tammens refers in his book part 1 to dr. Groneman, who did research to the components of keris in Jakarta. He was the one who tested the blades and made the conclusion of meteoric iron. The same dr. Groneman did the same tests again in the Krupp nickle factories in Germany. Also is refered to the many meteors that were found and used to make pamorblades.

I don't know if you have the books of Tammens, maybe you should read that part. He refers also to a scientific magazine that analyzed the components of iron meteors that contained different nickle amounts.
The dutch book I refered to earlier in this thread mentioned the meteoric iron used for pamorblades especially from the prambanan meteor that was the largest one and brought eventually to the kraton.

Maybe mistakes were made, but free iron from heaven? Remember that we, Dutch have been there.

tom hyle · 17th February 2005, 12:47 PM

BTW, I don't advocate the cutting up of old blades for testing; it actually horrifies me, and I think it might be especially bad with SE Asian blades, where I think a concept of "completeness" is important, and especially especially bad to do to a keris. It's a little like you see bigfoot, so you cut him up to find out what he is; seems ironic somehow, and wasteful.

16th February 2005, 06:57 PM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Depending to the books of Tammens there should be a lot of keris made from meteorite iron. Tammens wrote in his books about different colors of pamor depending on the kind of metalls that were used. Tammens wrote also about research on the metal of keris and older keris showed after analysis that during the forging-proces meteorite pamor was used. Meteorite metal contains nickle in different degrees. Tammens, part 1, chapter Pamor, the soul of the kris.

16th February 2005, 09:38 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I must say, I don't know much about kerise's - close to nothing if I have to be honest, but when reading another thread it seems to be close to impossible to recognice meteroric metal, when the blade has been made. Did I miss something? Jens

17th February 2005, 09:59 AM	#4
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I don't think you missed anything Jens, this is a very hard subject. Tammens refers in his book to this forging with meteorite metall and mentions the differences between the meteorite pamor and the pamor made from pure nickle bars, mixed with the common iron. The pamor that comes up is very bright and the pamor from meteor iron has softer tones and gives more non pamor fields on the blade. But to be honest, I cann't recognize metoric pamor. But if we may believe the literature and research has been done, there should be alot of kerisses around made with meteoric pamor.

17th February 2005, 11:41 AM	#5
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hi Henk. I believe that is the problem right there. I respect Tammens and his books, but i believe this is one instance where is is just mistaken.

17th February 2005, 12:34 PM	#6
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Hello Nechesh, I'm sceptical too, but Tammens refers in his book part 1 to dr. Groneman, who did research to the components of keris in Jakarta. He was the one who tested the blades and made the conclusion of meteoric iron. The same dr. Groneman did the same tests again in the Krupp nickle factories in Germany. Also is refered to the many meteors that were found and used to make pamorblades. I don't know if you have the books of Tammens, maybe you should read that part. He refers also to a scientific magazine that analyzed the components of iron meteors that contained different nickle amounts. The dutch book I refered to earlier in this thread mentioned the meteoric iron used for pamorblades especially from the prambanan meteor that was the largest one and brought eventually to the kraton. Maybe mistakes were made, but free iron from heaven? Remember that we, Dutch have been there.

17th February 2005, 12:47 PM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	BTW, I don't advocate the cutting up of old blades for testing; it actually horrifies me, and I think it might be especially bad with SE Asian blades, where I think a concept of "completeness" is important, and especially especially bad to do to a keris. It's a little like you see bigfoot, so you cut him up to find out what he is; seems ironic somehow, and wasteful.