my first keris

Tim Simmons · 1st December 2006, 07:13 PM

I am not trying to pull this back from the abyss but this side of the blade shows some signs of forging and folding so I am not sure it has been wholly ground to shape. It is still brand new though.

Tim Simmons · 1st December 2006, 08:33 PM

I just want to ask now that this is obviously a brand new piece. The quallity is a matter of taste. Does it still represent a composite piece? What would be the point especially if sold to tourists. There are no composite pieces in the collecting of African work, it is said to have neighbouring influences. Composite to me seems to have a collectors tone of disapproval. Do I need to study more?

David · 1st December 2006, 09:30 PM

Tim, i don't believe that composite pieces are ALWAYS to be disapproved of. Sometimes a seller has a few various parts lying around that he slaps together for sale.

Sometimes a keris from one region may end up in the dress of anothet for completely legitimate cultural reasons. If one has moved form, say Jawa, to Bali, they might feel the need to dress their keris in accordance with local custom. Some keris make their way to different islands and trade items and are then dressed locally.
i am not so sure that your piece is composite. The blade is certainly not a well made piece, but it is a forged piece, so i would call it a keris. And Alam Shah is correct to point out that it has a nice pendokok and the sheath seems to be a nice wood. All in all i wouldn't go so far as to say you were mugged. You probably didn't pay too much more that the market value.

drdavid · 1st December 2006, 09:53 PM

Hi Tim, don't worry about this one, there is a significant amount of rubbish sold off as keris, some new made some just old rubbish. Ebay does not seem to be a good place for the novice keris collector, it takes a long while and a lot of knowledge (which I dont have) to differentiate the good from the bad and even longer to split the good from the very good. Keris really are fascinating but if you want a good experience from the start I think you might be best served by finding a reputable dealer rather than relying on the luck of ebay (there was an interesting thread a while ago about 'keris like objects'). Anyway dont give up, like you say we have all bought some absolute duds (

shudders convulsively at the thought of one particularly poor purchase). Maybe we should have a thread on the main board about "trash I have paid for".
cheers
David

A. G. Maisey · 1st December 2006, 10:07 PM

Tim, I look at keris in a somewhat different way to the way in which the other people who contribute to this Forum look at them.

That "somewhat different way" means that I apply different standards to different keris.

What I can see in the pics you have provided is a village quality blade, a fairly decent old wrongko, a fair average quality handle, and a pendongkok that I believe will test as silver.

I can also see the price you paid.

In my opinion you recieved very good value for what you paid.

It is a fact of life that in this world we pretty much get what we pay for. High quality, old is going to cost good money, no matter where it comes from, including ebay. Yes, we all know of the exceptions to this, but those exceptions , to my knowledge, have been achieved by very, very knowledgeable people who are prepared to gamble on something that looks like it might be good, and then get rid of it if it is not.

Sleep easy Tim. You did OK.

David · 1st December 2006, 11:01 PM

Actually Tim, after checking the pound to dollar conversion rates i think you did do OK. I guess i was thinking the pound was worth a bit more. Alan also makes a good point that the pendokok may well be silver.

BluErf · 2nd December 2006, 02:34 AM

Hi Tim,

Though I would admit this keris is not a fine keris, I do not think it is made for the tourist. I see signs of san-mai construction, and I think it may not be 'spanking new'. I also think that this is a Sulawesi Bugis keris with every part made for the keris blade, judging from the very good fit and proportions. The sheath, pendoko and hilt styles are all consistent with Sulawesi archetype. Sulawesi kerises may be a rough lot, mostly, but through the roughness, a certain Bugis macho-ness emerges. It takes a slightly different perspective to appreciate it, but you may eventually like it.

"I am Bugis; I am tough. I ain't pretty. You got a problem with that?"

Anyway, if you don't want the keris, get in touch with Adni. I'm sure he can help find a new owner for the keris.

Tim Simmons · 2nd December 2006, 10:59 AM

Thank you gentlemen for information on this fascinating first step. It is not quite the same world as African weapons where there is little opportunity for the more creative dealer

I will now have one eye looking into the world of the keris, this experience is going to help me get that good old one. Cheap with my name on it. This keris might be simple but it gave me quite a nip while I was fiddling with the blade.

1st December 2006, 07:13 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	I am not trying to pull this back from the abyss but this side of the blade shows some signs of forging and folding so I am not sure it has been wholly ground to shape. It is still brand new though.

1st December 2006, 08:33 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	I just want to ask now that this is obviously a brand new piece. The quallity is a matter of taste. Does it still represent a composite piece? What would be the point especially if sold to tourists. There are no composite pieces in the collecting of African work, it is said to have neighbouring influences. Composite to me seems to have a collectors tone of disapproval. Do I need to study more?

1st December 2006, 09:30 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Tim, i don't believe that composite pieces are ALWAYS to be disapproved of. Sometimes a seller has a few various parts lying around that he slaps together for sale. Sometimes a keris from one region may end up in the dress of anothet for completely legitimate cultural reasons. If one has moved form, say Jawa, to Bali, they might feel the need to dress their keris in accordance with local custom. Some keris make their way to different islands and trade items and are then dressed locally. i am not so sure that your piece is composite. The blade is certainly not a well made piece, but it is a forged piece, so i would call it a keris. And Alam Shah is correct to point out that it has a nice pendokok and the sheath seems to be a nice wood. All in all i wouldn't go so far as to say you were mugged. You probably didn't pay too much more that the market value.

1st December 2006, 09:53 PM	#4
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	Hi Tim, don't worry about this one, there is a significant amount of rubbish sold off as keris, some new made some just old rubbish. Ebay does not seem to be a good place for the novice keris collector, it takes a long while and a lot of knowledge (which I dont have) to differentiate the good from the bad and even longer to split the good from the very good. Keris really are fascinating but if you want a good experience from the start I think you might be best served by finding a reputable dealer rather than relying on the luck of ebay (there was an interesting thread a while ago about 'keris like objects'). Anyway dont give up, like you say we have all bought some absolute duds ( shudders convulsively at the thought of one particularly poor purchase). Maybe we should have a thread on the main board about "trash I have paid for". cheers David

1st December 2006, 10:07 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Tim, I look at keris in a somewhat different way to the way in which the other people who contribute to this Forum look at them. That "somewhat different way" means that I apply different standards to different keris. What I can see in the pics you have provided is a village quality blade, a fairly decent old wrongko, a fair average quality handle, and a pendongkok that I believe will test as silver. I can also see the price you paid. In my opinion you recieved very good value for what you paid. It is a fact of life that in this world we pretty much get what we pay for. High quality, old is going to cost good money, no matter where it comes from, including ebay. Yes, we all know of the exceptions to this, but those exceptions , to my knowledge, have been achieved by very, very knowledgeable people who are prepared to gamble on something that looks like it might be good, and then get rid of it if it is not. Sleep easy Tim. You did OK.

1st December 2006, 11:01 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Actually Tim, after checking the pound to dollar conversion rates i think you did do OK. I guess i was thinking the pound was worth a bit more. Alan also makes a good point that the pendokok may well be silver.

2nd December 2006, 02:34 AM	#7
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hi Tim, Though I would admit this keris is not a fine keris, I do not think it is made for the tourist. I see signs of san-mai construction, and I think it may not be 'spanking new'. I also think that this is a Sulawesi Bugis keris with every part made for the keris blade, judging from the very good fit and proportions. The sheath, pendoko and hilt styles are all consistent with Sulawesi archetype. Sulawesi kerises may be a rough lot, mostly, but through the roughness, a certain Bugis macho-ness emerges. It takes a slightly different perspective to appreciate it, but you may eventually like it. "I am Bugis; I am tough. I ain't pretty. You got a problem with that?" Anyway, if you don't want the keris, get in touch with Adni. I'm sure he can help find a new owner for the keris.

2nd December 2006, 10:59 AM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Thank you gentlemen for information on this fascinating first step. It is not quite the same world as African weapons where there is little opportunity for the more creative dealer I will now have one eye looking into the world of the keris, this experience is going to help me get that good old one. Cheap with my name on it. This keris might be simple but it gave me quite a nip while I was fiddling with the blade.